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Karsuman
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Closeauthor=MayorAnime link=topic=3684.msg74008#msg74008 date=1241792255
At this point, Karsu, I'm going to stop replying to you on this thread. My reason is that philosophically, I disagree with this statement completely. Any more debate between us will be purely argumentative, which can be fun as hell when bored, but will ultimately deviate this thread away from the point NoblemanNick started, something we're all trying like the dickens to avoid here.
What are you talking about it? It's directly related to the subject matter of this topic.
People have opinions, yes, and while a (vast minority) of them are useful, that is not what gets people to play your games.
Think of it like this. Most people thought the Nintendo DS was retarded (or at least questionable design) before it came out. Now it is the most popular of the five main gaming machines on the market.
It is not a stretch to compare this to video game design - just look at Popcap Games. They just came out with a game named Plants vs Zombies. Sounds retarded, yes, but it is getting extremely positive reviews all the same. (as a side note, the longest cutscene in this game is probably 10 seconds or so)
So why are these things successful despite a design ethic people questioned? Because they knew what they were doing and because they have a good read on what people REALLY want, not what they think they want. The best developers are able to take total creative control of their product and develop the idea into something that most players will like.
This isn't just true for something as minor as game cutscenes. It's true for all aspects of a game, and product design in general.
The only RM game with a long intro that wasn't complete bullshit was Harbinger, Mayor. I am not expecting to see any others.
MayorAnime
282
author=WIP link=topic=3684.msg74014#msg74014 date=1241794266
The only RM game with a long intro that wasn't complete bullshit was Harbinger, Mayor. I am not expecting to see any others.
That's a fair opinion to have, WIP. It would be harder to do a good, long intro on the RM platform, but it still can be done by a person with good writing skills and lots of creative talent.
MayorAnime
282
author=Craze link=topic=3684.msg74016#msg74016 date=1241794446
If a player wants to skip cutscenes then you are doing something wrong.
Or they have been through it already. i.e. second playthrough.
I wouldn't beat myself up over someone wanting to skip cutscenes. Different players want and expect different things.
In the amateur scene, I recommend doing what you would like for an intro. If you like long story-driven cutscenes, so be it. If you prefer to have "choose 4 classes go Go GO!!", do that. Just be clear and focused in your intent.
You're not going to please everybody, and you're never going to please WIP (proven fact).
In the amateur scene, I recommend doing what you would like for an intro. If you like long story-driven cutscenes, so be it. If you prefer to have "choose 4 classes go Go GO!!", do that. Just be clear and focused in your intent.
You're not going to please everybody, and you're never going to please WIP (proven fact).
MayorAnime
282
author=Craze link=topic=3684.msg74018#msg74018 date=1241794560
THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT AND YOU KNOW IT
I dunno, man, you phrased your statement pretty black & white. But if you mean 'skip cutscenes the first time around', then yes, I agree with you.
author=kentona link=topic=3684.msg74019#msg74019 date=1241794686
I wouldn't beat myself up over someone wanting to skip cutscenes. Different players want and expect different things.
In the amateur scene, I recommend doing what you would like for an intro. If you like long story-driven cutscenes, so be it. If you prefer to have "choose 4 classes go Go GO!!", do that. Just be clear and focused in your intent.
You're not going to please everybody, and you're never going to please WIP (proven fact).
LOL! Actually, Kentona, none of us should be trying to please anyone here but ourselves and our players. <insert long Mayor Anime diatribe with links to wikipedia and pictures of KOS-MOS> I completely concur with you on everything you wrote, especially about never pleasing WIP...mostly because I don't wear any men's jewelry other than my wedding band.
Yoshio
774
my post was more along the lines of, anything above 5 minutes has got to be REALLY good and interesting or else almost every player will hate you, therefore you should have a lot of confidence to make the attemtpt
in my opinion there really isn't any real justification for a cutscene that long. Games are not movies, tell your story throughout the game play or else people are going to wonder "why did I have to watch that instead of actually doing it"
to answer your question: cut scenes are not meant to be skiped. The feature is of no comfort to me because our options are either "sit through this long boring cutscene/intro" or "skip all of them and have no idea what's going on"
of course there should always be the option if there is any point in your game that has: save point, incredibly long cutscene/dialogue exchange.(the best thing for a game to do in this instance is giving you the option to jump right to a rematch after a game over, I remember one professional game did this...)
that's another reason why I hate games that don't let you save almost anywhere but that's a subject for another topic
in my opinion there really isn't any real justification for a cutscene that long. Games are not movies, tell your story throughout the game play or else people are going to wonder "why did I have to watch that instead of actually doing it"
to answer your question: cut scenes are not meant to be skiped. The feature is of no comfort to me because our options are either "sit through this long boring cutscene/intro" or "skip all of them and have no idea what's going on"
of course there should always be the option if there is any point in your game that has: save point, incredibly long cutscene/dialogue exchange.(the best thing for a game to do in this instance is giving you the option to jump right to a rematch after a game over, I remember one professional game did this...)
that's another reason why I hate games that don't let you save almost anywhere but that's a subject for another topic
MayorAnime
282
Gonna have to jet, so I'll reply to this one quickly and get moving...!
I see where you are coming from now. You bring up a very valid point, and I agree with you. If you're going to have cut-scenes longer than five minutes in length, you better be a damn good Game Designer.
Here I have to disagree. It depends on both the type of cutscene and the type of game. I'm sure tha tyou did not mean just action cutscenes, but your language suggests it. What about dialogue intensive scenes? Either it's watch people talk or read text. Xenogears was sinfully wonderful, and yet I remember reading A LOT.
And also, I disagree with your comparison between video games and movies. There are times you simply must have a dramatic moment on camera that the player has no control over. Like witnessing several things happening in locations apart from the player character at the same time. Sadly, I look at the time I have left before i have to log out, and realize I cannot give the examples I wish to give. Hopefully, I have gotten my point across.
I agree. However, back to an earlier reply to Craze, I think the feature should be there for people who are playing the second/more time around. I know it's been immensely useful for my second playthrough of Metal Gear Solid 4.
I agree with you on this. That is just responsible Game Design. If you are going to force a long cutscene, you had better give the option to save. If the cutscene is before a boss fight, or something similar, then losing should not constitute a reload of the game before the cutscene, unless the cutscene is skippable (another reason to advocate skipping cutscenes...hmmmm....)
Yeah. That really is a totally different topic altogether.
author=Yoshio link=topic=3684.msg74023#msg74023 date=1241796628
my post was more along the lines of, anything above 5 minutes has got to be REALLY good and interesting or else almost every player will hate you, therefore you should have a lot of confidence to make the attemtpt
I see where you are coming from now. You bring up a very valid point, and I agree with you. If you're going to have cut-scenes longer than five minutes in length, you better be a damn good Game Designer.
author=Yoshio link=topic=3684.msg74023#msg74023 date=1241796628
in my opinion there really isn't any real justification for a cutscene that long. Games are not movies, tell your story throughout the game play or else people are going to wonder "why did I have to watch that instead of actually doing it"
Here I have to disagree. It depends on both the type of cutscene and the type of game. I'm sure tha tyou did not mean just action cutscenes, but your language suggests it. What about dialogue intensive scenes? Either it's watch people talk or read text. Xenogears was sinfully wonderful, and yet I remember reading A LOT.
And also, I disagree with your comparison between video games and movies. There are times you simply must have a dramatic moment on camera that the player has no control over. Like witnessing several things happening in locations apart from the player character at the same time. Sadly, I look at the time I have left before i have to log out, and realize I cannot give the examples I wish to give. Hopefully, I have gotten my point across.
author=Yoshio link=topic=3684.msg74023#msg74023 date=1241796628
to answer your question: cut scenes are not meant to be skiped. The feature is of no comfort to me because our options are either "sit through this long boring cutscene/intro" or "skip all of them and have no idea what's going on"
I agree. However, back to an earlier reply to Craze, I think the feature should be there for people who are playing the second/more time around. I know it's been immensely useful for my second playthrough of Metal Gear Solid 4.
author=Yoshio link=topic=3684.msg74023#msg74023 date=1241796628
of course there should always be the option if there is any point in your game that has: save point, incredibly long cutscene/dialogue exchange.(the best thing for a game to do in this instance is giving you the option to jump right to a rematch after a game over, I remember one professional game did this...)
I agree with you on this. That is just responsible Game Design. If you are going to force a long cutscene, you had better give the option to save. If the cutscene is before a boss fight, or something similar, then losing should not constitute a reload of the game before the cutscene, unless the cutscene is skippable (another reason to advocate skipping cutscenes...hmmmm....)
author=Yoshio link=topic=3684.msg74023#msg74023 date=1241796628
that's another reason why I hate games that don't let you save almost anywhere but that's a subject for another topic
Yeah. That really is a totally different topic altogether.
Mayor of anime town, your avatar is too big, please change it.
Anyway guys do I (or someone) really, really need to write an article on how what an RM game needs to do and what a commercial game needs to do are different?
Short Version: You have PAID CASH MONEY DOLLARS$$$ for Final Fantasy 15 and are going to give it as long as you need to get your money's worth out of it. However, if you are playing Eclectic Indie Title 0 which you downloaded FOR FREE FROM THE INTARWEBS it has less than five minutes to engage your interest, before you yawn, F12, and go back to Final Fantasy 15.
I still think the DS is kind of retarded...so...there?
Anyway guys do I (or someone) really, really need to write an article on how what an RM game needs to do and what a commercial game needs to do are different?
Short Version: You have PAID CASH MONEY DOLLARS$$$ for Final Fantasy 15 and are going to give it as long as you need to get your money's worth out of it. However, if you are playing Eclectic Indie Title 0 which you downloaded FOR FREE FROM THE INTARWEBS it has less than five minutes to engage your interest, before you yawn, F12, and go back to Final Fantasy 15.
Think of it like this. Most people thought the Nintendo DS was retarded (or at least questionable design) before it came out. Now it is the most popular of the five main gaming machines on the market.
I still think the DS is kind of retarded...so...there?
Just piping in to say that skipping cutscenes is the greatest feature ever implemented after saving anywhere
author=Max McGee link=topic=3684.msg74035#msg74035 date=1241803188Think of it like this. Most people thought the Nintendo DS was retarded (or at least questionable design) before it came out. Now it is the most popular of the five main gaming machines on the market.
I still think the DS is kind of retarded...so...there?
That is obviously not my point, but cute. =)
DFalcon
2141
I think Max pegged the most important point here. It's not even necessarily a question of whether you can grab people with a super-terrific first paragraph; you need to capture the player's attention so he actually reads the super-terrific first paragraph (or whatever) and gives it some thought, instead of just racing through or half-ignoring it. Making the player do something automatically engages him more.
If you can get the rapt attention of every person starting up your game based just on the strength of advertising then more power to you, but there's no question that freeware is at a disadvantage here.
If you can get the rapt attention of every person starting up your game based just on the strength of advertising then more power to you, but there's no question that freeware is at a disadvantage here.
I have NEVER had a problem with long intros in ANY game.
I almost cannot see what everybody is so bitchy about it.
I almost cannot see what everybody is so bitchy about it.
Darken
3952
author=MayorAnime link=topic=3684.msg74015#msg74015 date=1241794443
That's a fair opinion to have, WIP. It would be harder to do a good, long intro on the RM platform, but it still can be done by a person with good writing skills and lots of creative talent.
Here's a question: Why a long intro?
From a professional standpoint where you're backed up by special effects team to produce a hyped up trailer/intro it makes sense. But we're amatuers here we have nothing to grab the players by the balls with, as Max pointed out. What is the point? A couple of dialogue and "show not tell" cutscenes later on can explain the story better and easier.
MayorAnime
282
author=Darken link=topic=3684.msg74132#msg74132 date=1241883114
Here's a question: Why a long intro?
From a professional standpoint where you're backed up by special effects team to produce a hyped up trailer/intro it makes sense. But we're amatuers here we have nothing to grab the players by the balls with, as Max pointed out. What is the point? A couple of dialogue and "show not tell" cutscenes later on can explain the story better and easier.
Well, Darken, I think the real crux of the matter is that, as you just pointed out, I'm approaching the entire debate here from the standpoint of professional games, not RM games. For an amateur game that uses an engine like RPGMaker, you'd have to be rally awesome to hold a person's attention with a long introduction. But I stand fast by my belief that it can be done, has been done, and will be done again.
Of course, I'm with the camp of people here who say 'there is nothing wrong with a long intro'. But really, that's an opinion, and a choice of style. Can you accomplish the same thing with a 'couple of dialogue and "show not tell" cutscenes later'? Absolutely. Do you have to? Not at all. And is your quality of game design lessened by having a long intro? That's totally a matter of opinion.
I've had players of Lost Legacy tell me that they hate its long intro, like yourself. I've also had players of Lost Legacy tell me that they loved the long intro, some even saying that it drew them into the game. Therefore, it's the opinion of the individual player, and to try and set a standard on the designer is ridiculous. The industry doesn't have standards for intro length and cutscene length, why should an Indie community? Indie communities are supposed to be less restrictive than their mainstream counterparts, not more.
So to answer your question, 'Why a long intro?', the only answer I can give is 'Because that's what the designer wants to do'. Sure, he alienates one group of players, but at the same time he draws in another.
Really, Kentona summed up the entire debate best: 'you're not going to please everybody'. Who the heck really wants to try?
You can please more people by not boring them to tears.
Honestly, it's just because a lot of people are shitty or mediocre writers. If a person is confident they can pull off a 30-minute long intro in an exciting or interesting way, they can go ahead and try - but for the love god, don't do if you're not sure you can. And, as most of the oldbies are aware, 90% of the RM* community thinks they can write well, whereas the truth is probably much closer to the inverse of that statistic. 'Good writers' are a much rarer resource in this community than people realize, and I can count the number of writers I have respect for on two hands. Maybe one hand, if I'm particularly forgetful that day.
As was mentioned before, it's much easier to stomach a long, shitty intro when you've paid for it. A lot of modern commercial games have intros that are pretty terrible.
Think of it like this: if your intro sucks and is short, the pain will only last a few minutes and hopefully the player will continue and find some other aspect of the game entertaining.
But, if it's long and sucks, they will F12 by the 20th time the protagonist/villain/generic sage NPC uses an ellipsis r e a l l y s l o w l y .
Edit: To sum it up:
For commercial games, intros are a way of introducing the game world.
For RM*/amateur games, it is a battle for the player's interest, and time. They just downloaded an 11 meg file off the internet. They can just forget about it and delete it the moment the mood strikes them.
Making a long intro is a MASSIVE risk; this community is very cynical. We do not wait for things to 'pick up'. If it's boring, we do not lose a damn thing by exiting out and playing a better game. You need to keep this in mind with your players. They owe you nothing. You owe them everything. You need to show them a good time or they will dump you immediately, not unlike a spoiled prom queen. The reason why I say the players know nothing is because they are looking for you to guide them and give them a reason to enjoy your game.
Focus on making your game entertaining. Do what is necessary to hold their interest for the sacred 5-minute/30-minute/1-hour intervals, and you've got them hook, line and sinker if you maintain/improve your level of quality.
That's all.
Honestly, it's just because a lot of people are shitty or mediocre writers. If a person is confident they can pull off a 30-minute long intro in an exciting or interesting way, they can go ahead and try - but for the love god, don't do if you're not sure you can. And, as most of the oldbies are aware, 90% of the RM* community thinks they can write well, whereas the truth is probably much closer to the inverse of that statistic. 'Good writers' are a much rarer resource in this community than people realize, and I can count the number of writers I have respect for on two hands. Maybe one hand, if I'm particularly forgetful that day.
As was mentioned before, it's much easier to stomach a long, shitty intro when you've paid for it. A lot of modern commercial games have intros that are pretty terrible.
Think of it like this: if your intro sucks and is short, the pain will only last a few minutes and hopefully the player will continue and find some other aspect of the game entertaining.
But, if it's long and sucks, they will F12 by the 20th time the protagonist/villain/generic sage NPC uses an ellipsis r e a l l y s l o w l y .
Edit: To sum it up:
For commercial games, intros are a way of introducing the game world.
For RM*/amateur games, it is a battle for the player's interest, and time. They just downloaded an 11 meg file off the internet. They can just forget about it and delete it the moment the mood strikes them.
Making a long intro is a MASSIVE risk; this community is very cynical. We do not wait for things to 'pick up'. If it's boring, we do not lose a damn thing by exiting out and playing a better game. You need to keep this in mind with your players. They owe you nothing. You owe them everything. You need to show them a good time or they will dump you immediately, not unlike a spoiled prom queen. The reason why I say the players know nothing is because they are looking for you to guide them and give them a reason to enjoy your game.
Focus on making your game entertaining. Do what is necessary to hold their interest for the sacred 5-minute/30-minute/1-hour intervals, and you've got them hook, line and sinker if you maintain/improve your level of quality.
That's all.
