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HYPE AND HOW IT AFFECTS YOU
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CloseMax, the overall feeling I get from your post is like some sort of grudge and moaning against how things work.
I was just talking about how to get players and general marketing, and that I have never had problems with it. If it's the screens or something negligible little polishing that does the trick, then that's that. "There's always mainstream and trends." And it's also like kentona says - you have to stand out.
The filling of the product is partly subjective when it comes marketing a product. That's something left out for players to find when they download your game. But we're talking about advertising here - it's about attracting people to try it out in the first place. If there's 40 restaurants in one street and your's has the best chef but no one knows, how do you get people to come into yours when you're just only starting?
I was just talking about how to get players and general marketing, and that I have never had problems with it. If it's the screens or something negligible little polishing that does the trick, then that's that. "There's always mainstream and trends." And it's also like kentona says - you have to stand out.
The filling of the product is partly subjective when it comes marketing a product. That's something left out for players to find when they download your game. But we're talking about advertising here - it's about attracting people to try it out in the first place. If there's 40 restaurants in one street and your's has the best chef but no one knows, how do you get people to come into yours when you're just only starting?
Great screen shots will almost always generate some form of hype, whether it be great/unique mapping or original graphics (you can almost always guarantee hype from this).
I hate this.
People comment on screenshots, not games. People review screenshots, not games. People become fans of screenshots, not games. And people vote for screenshots, not games. This obsessive screenshot-fapping is one of my least favorite things about the community.
It's like you have to have a good screenshot for people to even read what your game is about.Once you have a following and are respectable enough (as well as being someone who actually finishes stuff) you can start hyping your next project. Beucase that's when your followers will be all gaga and go "DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THIS GAME. THERE'S A DEMO OUT IN TWO WEEKS!" and you don't actually need to do any of that senseless stupid hyping yourself.
Having bummed around the community for years and shit out dozens of games, plenty of them complete, if I am not yet respectable I don't know how one would become respectable. However, if I can be said to have a following they are INCREDIBLY SILENT and certainly do not hype my projects for me. In spite of all the games I've dangled there is virtually no clamor for any of them.
The one time anyone else WAS hyping my projects (the circlejerk/feeding frenzy over Iron Gaia 2) in any way that was conspicuous or vocal it triggered a horrible reprisal against me.
Not trying to say you're wrong, just offering my unique perspective.These days I find that making a gameprofile for a new project suffices for hype. People that are interested in it subscribed and follow along as I post updates.
I wish.Writing honest blogs detailing actual progress is better than hype because it gives people an accurate depiction of what you are up to and will keep genuinely interested people in the fodl long enough that they'll play the game once it is released (it also helps you bounce ideas off people and improve your game before a demo even comes out - this is really helpful as a developer. Far better than the burden of expectation caused by over-hyping your game).
I'm trying this now although I'm not sure people actually read blog posts that aren't by someone super famous like Craze.I've personally never had problems advertising my projects. Even though Ascendence is roughly only one or two hour long game, it has 2,5k downloads. And that project was never advertised outside RMN within its release. I had just posted a lot of screens and videos of it while I was still working on the first demo.
Not saying anything disparaging about Ascendence but this is definitely part of the screenshot phenomenon.Something I've learnt personally is it's better to generate absolutely no attention while in the development stage so I can easily work away at my game without any pressure. I don't think that's something that the majority will agree with, at least not right away.
I am being part of the majority by disagreeing; what then motivates you to complete the game? The 'pressure'/motivation of having new ideas and wanting them to out (yes this is basically correct grammar think about it a bit more I am using out as a verb) only goes so far.This, pretty much. Around here, a game's marketing potential is 100% tied to whatever a creator does with his gamepage
This is why I really hope someone patient will explain to me how to use CSS. (Hint hint.) I just can't figure it out on my own from the information available.Anyway, don't hype the vision of your game. Hype your actual game.
Word. This, so much this.
EDIT:
whoa Max's post tripled in size when I was writing this.
Sproing!
Anyway with the bookstore analogy this...also worries me as a writer who will (hopefully) one day be an anonymous name on the spines of one of those shelves, with nothing to distinguish me but a cover I can't control. I can at least control screenshots.
Using this bookstore analogy to analyze how I respond to hype...I really only buy things by the authors I like or things that have been recommended to me. I don't exactly use the same logic when playing RM games, largely cause they're free.
Edit 1:
Max, the overall feeling I get from your post is like some sort of grudge and moaning against how things work.
I guess I see how you could feel that way if you were looking for the "overall feeling" of the post but I don't think it's what all the individual words add up to. I had no overall point, I was just following a lot of different conversational threads. : )
Oh and I prefer "muckraking RM reformer" to "moaning against how things work". : P
A cover you can't control? I'm not sure what you mean by that. In what sense are you not in control?
I don't want to respond based on my half-baked ideas/conjecture if you are an actual published novelist. If you're not, let me know and I'll edit this post with what exactly I meant about authors not being able to control what's on the cover of their books.
Oh right, I forgot about the recommendation thing. I will sometimes buy books others have recommended for me AND/OR recommend/lend books to other people and vice versa.
post=131390
I don't want to respond based on my half-baked ideas/conjecture if you are an actual published novelist. If you're not, let me know and I'll edit this post with what exactly I meant about authors not being able to control what's on the cover of their books.
I'm not a novelist, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. When you say "cover", what is the "cover" of your RM game, and in what sense are you not in control of it?
These analogies are hurting my brain.
post=131395post=131390I'm not a novelist, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. When you say "cover", what is the "cover" of your RM game, and in what sense are you not in control of it?
I don't want to respond based on my half-baked ideas/conjecture if you are an actual published novelist. If you're not, let me know and I'll edit this post with what exactly I meant about authors not being able to control what's on the cover of their books.
These analogies are hurting my brain.
I was not using an analogy, narcodis I was talking about being an actual writer (which I am) and getting actually published (which I may one day be) and having no control over the cover of my book.
In other words I was talking about the scenario in Mr. Anderson's analogy not as an analogy but as an actual dilemma.
Does that clarify things?
In other words I was talking about the scenario in Mr. Anderson's analogy not as an analogy but as an actual dilemma.
Does that clarify things?
post=131385
I hate this.
People comment on screenshots, not games. People review screenshots, not games. People become fans of screenshots, not games. And people vote for screenshots, not games. This obsessive screenshot-fapping is one of my least favorite things about the community.
You know Max I'm respecting what you have to say in general but I'd have to say the whole OVERBLOWING PROBLEMS/MOANING is one of my least favorite things about the community. The whole screenshot thing for example, is really not as bad as you're saying it is. I mean come on, I'm really beginning to see what people mean when they say the community has been nothing but complaining recently; I mean, it's one thing to be honest about flaws but embrace the good for what it is too. It's like waking up next to your girlfriend every day and complaining about her, every day.
I mean just take a chill pill and relax, guys.
post=131397
I was not using an analogy, narcodis I was talking about being an actual writer (which I am) and getting actually published (which I may one day be) and having no control over the cover of my book.
In other words I was talking about the scenario in Mr. Anderson's analogy not as an analogy but as an actual dilemma.
Does that clarify things?
Oh okay.
God that was confusing.
That's pretty irrelevant to RM games, as you're the publisher and get to decide about the advertising.
But what kentona said about people recommending your product to other people - it's also a part of the process becoming popular, but I'd consider it as a totally different stage.
There are audiences and you may or may not have to seek how to reach them. If you want lots of players, then in the first phase you just put yourself out there and try to be as tempting as possible to everyone out there. It gets you numbers, even though it might be hit and miss. Lots of people might dislike the contents of your product, but it will create discussion and make people aware of the existence of your product in first place. When people start talking about it and recommend the game, it just multiplies, but on the scale depending on how much people got it in their hands in first place.
The more people you get to try it out at all obviously raises the chances of it ending up in hands of people who like it and will recommend it to their friends.
No risk no reward.
But what kentona said about people recommending your product to other people - it's also a part of the process becoming popular, but I'd consider it as a totally different stage.
There are audiences and you may or may not have to seek how to reach them. If you want lots of players, then in the first phase you just put yourself out there and try to be as tempting as possible to everyone out there. It gets you numbers, even though it might be hit and miss. Lots of people might dislike the contents of your product, but it will create discussion and make people aware of the existence of your product in first place. When people start talking about it and recommend the game, it just multiplies, but on the scale depending on how much people got it in their hands in first place.
The more people you get to try it out at all obviously raises the chances of it ending up in hands of people who like it and will recommend it to their friends.
No risk no reward.
Kaempfer
1932
Novelists do have some control over their covers, just not as much as they should. Especially established novelists. It depends on the genre, as well, but some novelists actually have an important say in choosing cover artists, although usually not what is actually drawn. I am, of course, referring to the fantasy/science fiction genre, as other genres have their own maxims. But whatevs you feel me
I don't hype at all. With the exception of a few people here at RMN, nobody even knows what I am currently working on. I don't want anyone to know what my game is all about until I have an actual game for people to play. Then I want for them to know exactly what it's all about!
edit whoah 100 posts since I started this response!
People don't review games based on screenshots my chumarino. They might decide which games to play based on that, but they review the actual game itself, overwhelmingly so in my experience.
I don't hype at all. With the exception of a few people here at RMN, nobody even knows what I am currently working on. I don't want anyone to know what my game is all about until I have an actual game for people to play. Then I want for them to know exactly what it's all about!
edit whoah 100 posts since I started this response!
People don't review games based on screenshots my chumarino. They might decide which games to play based on that, but they review the actual game itself, overwhelmingly so in my experience.
That's pretty irrelevant to RM games, as you're the publisher and get to decide about the advertising.
I agree and I explained I was talking for a bit about the actual world of book publishing. I can see that REALLY threw everyone for a loop, lol.
In general terms I don't disagree with anything you just said.
It's like waking up next to your girlfriend every day and complaining about her, every day.
This has no relevance to RM:
Yes but if it's your first novel you're pretty much fucked. Likewise, this is even more true if your short story published in a magazine is being accompanied by art although much less important since it's not on the cover. Anyway you can also get really lucky in this respect. The art that was done based on my story "Revelations" came back with this:
http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/2220/locker/Revelations_gray.jpg
Needless to say I was quite pleased but I really won the lottery there. It could have been shit and I'd have no veto. I imagine and have read that the same is basically true with first novels as well.
End tangent.
Novelists do have some control over their covers, just not as much as they should. Especially established novelists. It depends on the genre, as well, but some novelists actually have an important say in choosing cover artists, although usually not what is actually drawn. I am, of course, referring to the fantasy/science fiction genre, as other genres have their own maxims. But whatevs you feel me
Yes but if it's your first novel you're pretty much fucked. Likewise, this is even more true if your short story published in a magazine is being accompanied by art although much less important since it's not on the cover. Anyway you can also get really lucky in this respect. The art that was done based on my story "Revelations" came back with this:
http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/2220/locker/Revelations_gray.jpg
Needless to say I was quite pleased but I really won the lottery there. It could have been shit and I'd have no veto. I imagine and have read that the same is basically true with first novels as well.
End tangent.
Drakonais
2787
A lot of really good ideas, guys. Combining a few suggestions, I think I'll release a little promotional flash something to coincide with the game's actual release so people can get the full game right away if interest was piqued at all, and rely on word of mouth (or type) from then on out.
Also, I agree that screenshot obsession isn't necessarily a good way to judge a game (graphics aren't my strongest suit either), but it was at least a way to get to know a game. I've downloaded games with screenshots that seemed to suggest an interesting cast of characters as well. It's great when makers can have characters shine through with only one message box (see Vandeli of Avarice).
Also, I agree that screenshot obsession isn't necessarily a good way to judge a game (graphics aren't my strongest suit either), but it was at least a way to get to know a game. I've downloaded games with screenshots that seemed to suggest an interesting cast of characters as well. It's great when makers can have characters shine through with only one message box (see Vandeli of Avarice).
This doesn't quite mesh with the topic, but people have been talking about advertising in general, so:
-If you want people to play your game, finish your game.
-If you want people to play your game, you need to find people who will play your game.
-People who will play your game are not developers.
-Developers are what this community consists of.
What does this mean? It means that you should probably not only release your games inside this community. It also means that you need to have a not-shitty game; these people like games along the lines of Iji, Exit Fate, Cave Story and Dwarf Fortress.
You have one advantage: your game is free. The problem? So are the games I listed above. Make something worthwhile and then show it people who actually give a damn (re: not developers). Two pages in a topic on RRR does not success make...
...but that's just my opinion. I know nothing, so just ignore me and make fun of my ego.
-If you want people to play your game, finish your game.
-If you want people to play your game, you need to find people who will play your game.
-People who will play your game are not developers.
-Developers are what this community consists of.
What does this mean? It means that you should probably not only release your games inside this community. It also means that you need to have a not-shitty game; these people like games along the lines of Iji, Exit Fate, Cave Story and Dwarf Fortress.
You have one advantage: your game is free. The problem? So are the games I listed above. Make something worthwhile and then show it people who actually give a damn (re: not developers). Two pages in a topic on RRR does not success make...
...but that's just my opinion. I know nothing, so just ignore me and make fun of my ego.
-People who will play your game are not developers.
-Developers are what this community consists of.
Sort of. I mean, how many people who visit the main site are from this community? Like WIP usually says, I would figure that most of the population who frequents the main site are exponentially higher than the community that most of us complain about who never play games.
And even then I feel that complaint while valid, is also overstated.
Geez you guys complain a lot, Jesus Christ!
post=131420
This doesn't quite mesh with the topic, but people have been talking about advertising in general, so:
-If you want people to play your game, finish your game.
-If you want people to play your game, you need to find people who will play your game.
-People who will play your game are not developers.
-Developers are what this community consists of.
What does this mean? It means that you should probably not only release your games inside this community. It also means that you need to have a not-shitty game; these people like games along the lines of Iji, Exit Fate, Cave Story and Dwarf Fortress.
You have one advantage: your game is free. The problem? So are the games I listed above. Make something worthwhile and then show it people who actually give a damn (re: not developers). Two pages in a topic on RRR does not success make...
...but that's just my opinion. I know nothing, so just ignore me and make fun of my ego.
Where do you think we CAN find a userbase? My own ego is so fragile I would instinctively avoid places where any RPG Maker project, no matter how good, would be laughed off of the stage.
Sort of. I mean, how many people who visit the main site are from this community? Like WIP usually says, I would figure that most of the population who frequents the main site are exponentially higher than the community that most of us complain about who never play games.
I agree with this. Also, I play games. And I think other people play games too.
catmitts
4862
I sometimes post screenshots of what I'm working on because I'm a whore but I always feel gross about it and regret it. Hype is gross!! Don't be gross guys!! Like there's seeking out actual criticism or posting games to where people might like them or just trying to make people aware they exist which is all fine but I think there's a distinction between that and uh MARKETING TACTICS. Heh just gonna release a few carefully chosen screenies to "build up a buzz" as they say. Gotta keep up that brand recognition. Gotta keep my game on the first page. It just seems really ugly and sordid to me. I would rather people just didn't play my games than be attracted to them by some demeaning superficial horseshit because anyone who cares about that shit is probably awful anyway and fuck them. I still remember when cactus squid would release his games on G&D and get completely ignored while some awful dork was bumping his final fantasy fangame to six pages long. I know there's a couple of people who would see that and think HEH JUST MORE PROOF MARKETING IS IMPORTANT but given a choice between self-respect and a few more people playing some fucking videogame I like to think I'd choose the former.
