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WHEN DO YOU THINK IS A GOOD TIME TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE YOUR PARTY?
Posts
amerk
2539
amerk
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CloseDrats, my posting looks not to have gone through. I think I hit a different button.
Anyway, sounds like Dragon Quest 4. The game was set up as chapters. Each main character had their own specific chapter and agenda and goals. Ultimately, these became entangled with the other main character's and their chapters. In the final chapter, the hero came forth when an agenda of his own and gathered the main characters from the previous chapters.
You could set this up in similar style. Give each group their own specific backstory & agenda, but include a common goal as well. Each group could start at a certain area of the overworld, so that it's not repetitive when going from one group to another. In the course of their chapter, have each group eventually meet at a specific destination. Once they get to this destination, that group's chapter ends, and the next begins. Once they are all at the specific destination, move into the final chapter, allowing the player to gather characters from all groups for the final battle.
Anyway, sounds like Dragon Quest 4. The game was set up as chapters. Each main character had their own specific chapter and agenda and goals. Ultimately, these became entangled with the other main character's and their chapters. In the final chapter, the hero came forth when an agenda of his own and gathered the main characters from the previous chapters.
You could set this up in similar style. Give each group their own specific backstory & agenda, but include a common goal as well. Each group could start at a certain area of the overworld, so that it's not repetitive when going from one group to another. In the course of their chapter, have each group eventually meet at a specific destination. Once they get to this destination, that group's chapter ends, and the next begins. Once they are all at the specific destination, move into the final chapter, allowing the player to gather characters from all groups for the final battle.
Do that with 17 characters and kill all them but four for the final battle! :D
Ok, kidding. I really liked the idea of chapters far away, And I shall reinforce that this is what sould you do. Especially since I HATE having 6664444444444444444 characters to choose. I think five and one would not be in~battle would be awesome. (per chapter, or something, in the times where there were 5 characters in the story)
Just got an idea: What if the leftõut character gave a bonus to the party, specific to each one of them, such as EXP bonus, HP regeneration, better items, randomnly attack in battle (a la ffiii, [a.k.a. "The~Game~IÃ'ever~Really~Got~To~Play~At~All."
Ok, kidding. I really liked the idea of chapters far away, And I shall reinforce that this is what sould you do. Especially since I HATE having 6664444444444444444 characters to choose. I think five and one would not be in~battle would be awesome. (per chapter, or something, in the times where there were 5 characters in the story)
Just got an idea: What if the leftõut character gave a bonus to the party, specific to each one of them, such as EXP bonus, HP regeneration, better items, randomnly attack in battle (a la ffiii, [a.k.a. "The~Game~IÃ'ever~Really~Got~To~Play~At~All."
TheDigitalMonk
1148
Maybe it's just me, but from someone who tends to make games that are very story heavy, it seems almost impossible to have a deep narrative if the player can choose who's in your party at what time. FF6 did this PERFECTLY when you can choose the 3 different scenarios (somewhat toward the beginning of the game), because at the end of that whole thing, you have enough characters for a good variety, but you've also bonded with each one and had a compelling story told specific to the characters, and you also get the sense of non-linearity and interactivity by choosing which scenarios to play first. Then at the end of it all (we'll pretend the game ends with that battle at narshe) you get to use all of them in a final series of battles, mixing and matching at your leisure. THAT is how it's done.
If you can choose your party for the bulk of the story, your'e going to end up with cookie-cutter dialogue for each character, and no one will really be able to impact the story at all (because as a game maker, you don't know which characters will be there, and therefore, can't structure the scene around them).
That's the perspective of someone who emphasizes storytelling in their games :P
If you can choose your party for the bulk of the story, your'e going to end up with cookie-cutter dialogue for each character, and no one will really be able to impact the story at all (because as a game maker, you don't know which characters will be there, and therefore, can't structure the scene around them).
That's the perspective of someone who emphasizes storytelling in their games :P
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Well, it's not like characters who aren't present in your active party can't be present in cut scenes. If the entire team is traveling around with you through dungeons and only three or four of them are fighting at a time, then it's simple for everyone to be present during cut scenes. If the ones who aren't with you are somewhere else, then you're limited to having them present during cut scenes that happen between dungeons. But, uh, most cut scenes happen between dungeons anyway.
Other methods include:
- Dungeons where a certain character is required. Example: Terra must be brought to the Sealed Gate.
- Branching dialogue, so that whoever is present talks. If everyone says the same things, then this is pointless, but you can easily make them say different things, or get the same point across in different ways. Example: When you fight the final battle against Lavos, each character will make a short speech. Regardless of who you bring, you learn that Lavos is a parasite who has fed on the planet for millions of years.
- Optional cut scenes that only happen if you brought a certain character. Example: Bringing Sabin and Edgar to Figaro Castle causes a flashback.
Other methods include:
- Dungeons where a certain character is required. Example: Terra must be brought to the Sealed Gate.
- Branching dialogue, so that whoever is present talks. If everyone says the same things, then this is pointless, but you can easily make them say different things, or get the same point across in different ways. Example: When you fight the final battle against Lavos, each character will make a short speech. Regardless of who you bring, you learn that Lavos is a parasite who has fed on the planet for millions of years.
- Optional cut scenes that only happen if you brought a certain character. Example: Bringing Sabin and Edgar to Figaro Castle causes a flashback.
AznChipmunk
4613
post=150716
Well, it's not like characters who aren't present in your active party can't be present in cut scenes. If the entire team is traveling around with you through dungeons and only three or four of them are fighting at a time, then it's simple for everyone to be present during cut scenes. If the ones who aren't with you are somewhere else, then you're limited to having them present during cut scenes that happen between dungeons. But, uh, most cut scenes happen between dungeons anyway.
Yeah but are you really going to be writing cutscenes that actively utilize all 30 or whatever of your characters at a time?
post=150716
- Branching dialogue, so that whoever is present talks. If everyone says the same things, then this is pointless, but you can easily make them say different things, or get the same point across in different ways. Example: When you fight the final battle against Lavos, each character will make a short speech. Regardless of who you bring, you learn that Lavos is a parasite who has fed on the planet for millions of years.
TheDigitalMonk JUST explained why this method is horrible horrible horrible. Chrono Trigger is a horrible example too because that game has a COMPLETE LACK of characterization.
post=150716
- Optional cut scenes that only happen if you brought a certain character. Example: Bringing Sabin and Edgar to Figaro Castle causes a flashback.
Doing something like this can suck unless you hint at it because putting a lot of "one-timers" is annoying.
Darken
3952
Yeah but are you really going to be writing cutscenes that actively utilize all 30 or whatever of your characters at a time?
This is actually why I have a problem with yeaster's games, or at least, the screenshots. Example: http://rpgmaker.net/games/284/images/7699/ I have no opinion on his actual game or even story. But I can't imagine any flexibility in writing the cutscene let alone writing the cutscene so that every character has a say or role.
I don't have much to say in this topic as I generally go with the max playable characters = the total characters rule for my current game. Not that it's the right way to do things, but it's certainly... pretty easy!
Maybe it's just me, but from someone who tends to make games that are very story heavy, it seems almost impossible to have a deep narrative if the player can choose who's in your party at what time.
xenogears
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Azn: I never suggested that he would use 30 characters at once in a cut scene. Just that he would always have access to whichever ones he needed. A lot of games work this way - they give you six characters, and though only 3 are fighting in your battle party, the others come out of your pocket for relevant cut scenes. You might enter a dungeon and it causes a short scene where Fang and Vanille talk to each-other, even though your battle party doesn't include either of them.
As far as missable scenes go... as long as they're not vital to the flow of the game, I think they're great. They add more characterization to the characters the player cares about most, while ignoring the characters the player is ignoring. Branching dialogue is really the same thing. It doesn't affect the game's plot, it only adds characterization. Which is the goal, right? Being able to tell major plot events was never an issue. The goal is to make it so the characters get to have personalities even after you can choose your party. In some games, like FF6, once you can choose your party the characterization falls apart and all you have left are plot events. In other games, like FF7, they let your party members talk in pretty much every cut scene throughout the game, and it adds a lot of flavor. (Other games have done it much better than FF7, it was just one of the first.)
My personal favorite method is just to make lots of dungeons where a certain character is required, though. This lets a character actually be the focus of events, to build their backstory instead of just their personality. And it also makes the player have to learn that character's strengths and weaknesses and adapt to having them in the party.
As far as missable scenes go... as long as they're not vital to the flow of the game, I think they're great. They add more characterization to the characters the player cares about most, while ignoring the characters the player is ignoring. Branching dialogue is really the same thing. It doesn't affect the game's plot, it only adds characterization. Which is the goal, right? Being able to tell major plot events was never an issue. The goal is to make it so the characters get to have personalities even after you can choose your party. In some games, like FF6, once you can choose your party the characterization falls apart and all you have left are plot events. In other games, like FF7, they let your party members talk in pretty much every cut scene throughout the game, and it adds a lot of flavor. (Other games have done it much better than FF7, it was just one of the first.)
My personal favorite method is just to make lots of dungeons where a certain character is required, though. This lets a character actually be the focus of events, to build their backstory instead of just their personality. And it also makes the player have to learn that character's strengths and weaknesses and adapt to having them in the party.
AznChipmunk
4613
FF7 has some of the worst characterization, and like, four people JUST explained why.
Also, FF13 as an example is automatically wrong, please resubmit.
Also, FF13 as an example is automatically wrong, please resubmit.
I just decided to scrap a choose-your-own-party system from my game because some of the characters were unnecessary and frankly, it was too much work for me and too little reward for the player.
To address the first post, if you're giving the player 17 characters, either force the player to use them at least a little bit if you're going to force them to use them at the end, or don't force the player to use them at all. Otherwise, near the end of the game the player's going to have a dozen characters he has no idea what to do with.
On the other hand, if you don't force the player to do anything, he will likely pick his favorite 4 and never, ever switch. Maybe he'll have 1 or 2 backups for when a character leaves.
FFVI did do this very well, by introducing most of the characters early enough, having them constantly join, leave, and split up (switching available chars around), and making dungeons which used all of the characters well.
To address the first post, if you're giving the player 17 characters, either force the player to use them at least a little bit if you're going to force them to use them at the end, or don't force the player to use them at all. Otherwise, near the end of the game the player's going to have a dozen characters he has no idea what to do with.
On the other hand, if you don't force the player to do anything, he will likely pick his favorite 4 and never, ever switch. Maybe he'll have 1 or 2 backups for when a character leaves.
FFVI did do this very well, by introducing most of the characters early enough, having them constantly join, leave, and split up (switching available chars around), and making dungeons which used all of the characters well.
Yeaster
6164
post=151174Yeah but are you really going to be writing cutscenes that actively utilize all 30 or whatever of your characters at a time?This is actually why I have a problem with yeaster's games, or at least, the screenshots. Example: http://rpgmaker.net/games/284/images/7699/ I have no opinion on his actual game or even story. But I can't imagine any flexibility in writing the cutscene let alone writing the cutscene so that every character has a say or role.
I do make sure to give every single person their own part, and no one speaks unless they have to. I don't do massive introductions and I don't try to squeeze every single character into an event if they're not needed. As far as the NPCs are concerned -- they do what I need them to do, and after they've completed their purpose, I will give their characters closure. The MCs all get their moments to shine and have their own individual character arc. No one is forgotten, or hanging around the team just for shits and giggles. lol They all have a purpose and a reason for being there.
It's not hard.
Also, that particular screenshot occurs late in the game, and by that point the players should be familiar with everyone. At least I hope. lol Anyways, in that scene, twelve of the girls were formerly possessed by demons who were eating away at their souls. All throughout the third act, they challenged the MCs and were defeated in battle one-by-one (or two-by-two, whichever :p). In the final act, they were taken to the planet where the demons originated from, in an effort to participate in a particular kind of exorcism ritual that would obliterate the demon's "essence" for good, however, they'll lose all of their powers in the process (two of those girls were actually party members). Didn't mean to threadjack, but yeah.
The goal is to make it so the characters get to have personalities even after you can choose your party.In some games, like FF6, once you can choose your party the characterization falls apart and all you have left are plot events. In other games, like FF7, they let your party members talk in pretty much every cut scene throughout the game, and it adds a lot of flavor. (Other games have done it much better than FF7, it was just one of the first.)
Yeah, this is exactly what I do. The MCs are constantly interacting with each other, even the ones that the player isn't using at the moment. It's honestly not that hard to do this, at least not for me.
ElectricalKat
254
Actually, I can think of one RPG Maker game that had managed to characterize its PCs very well, while still maintaining a small choose-your-own-party system throughout some of it: Kinetic Cipher. Although, it was somewhat more limited than what the OP is proposing (I think - I cannot remember the specifics as to why right now, since it has been awhile), but KC is still an example for him.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
FF7 has some of the worst characterization, and like, four people JUST explained why.
Also, FF13 as an example is automatically wrong, please resubmit.
Dude, whether you think my example actually has good characters or not is irrelevant, I'm just giving examples of what I mean when describing a mechanic. The fact that a game you don't like uses something doesn't mean it's impossible to use well. I'm intentionally using very simple examples so that there's no confusion about what I mean. The examples are clear examples of the mechanic in question, mentioned simply to help you understand exactly what mechanic I'm talking about. Not examples of games that interweave it with other ideas to create masterpieces.
My personal method is to just assume your entire party is there. If a certain character is necessary for a scene, she's there, regardless of whether she's an active party member or not.
I would personally allow the player to change their party at any time outside of a battle or a specific plot event limiting the characters in a party.
I would personally allow the player to change their party at any time outside of a battle or a specific plot event limiting the characters in a party.
Now that you mention it, FF7 was really good at bringing all of your characters together right before a cutscene.
You could definitely just have them there for the cutscenes no matter what. While it may vaguely stretch the player's suspension of disbelief, it's worth it over several unnecessary hours of weird systems or reworked dialogue.
You could definitely just have them there for the cutscenes no matter what. While it may vaguely stretch the player's suspension of disbelief, it's worth it over several unnecessary hours of weird systems or reworked dialogue.
Hard to tell. Personally I dread having to choose between party members.. I always feel like I'm missing something.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Really? Most people I know refuse to play any game that doesn't have any customization. Choosing your party is not really any different from choose your party members' classes, except that it has the potential for plot differences.
post=152286
You gotta fight! For your right! To change your PAAAARTY!
What about that laxative commercial?
YOU GOTTA FIGHT!
FOR YOUR RIGHT!
TO POTTY!
post=152361
Really? Most people I know refuse to play any game that doesn't have any customization. Choosing your party is not really any different from choose your party members' classes, except that it has the potential for plot differences.
It depends on the definition of customization. There are ways to customize characters without choosing their class or lineup; you can mold their stats and purchase/learn skills that fit certain roles, or hybrids of said roles, without set guidelines. Granted, this type of system usually requires a fallback -- a fail-safe, if you will -- since it's easy to screw everything up.
