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MULTIPLE LOVE INTERESTS IN A SERIOUS RPG... DOES IT WORK?
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post=148010
The Love Plus thing has nothing to do with what I said.
I also cannot think of a single good FF or FE love story, and a game having a love triangle does not mean it is good at what it does.
This is either because you are not thinking or you haven't played enough.
Heard of the infamous Cloud, Tifa, Aries triangle? They've made movies on it.
FE protagonistxdragon girl?
Stop being so pessimistic and rude.
post=148014
There's always Jade Empire.
Isn't that an mmo?
Nope....... I have a question tho.
I'm trying to make a Dating_system for my game and was wondering if it would rude to not tell the player that
there is romance at all?
For example what FFX did with the affection levels for Rikku, Lulu, and Yuna.
Just wonderin
I'm trying to make a Dating_system for my game and was wondering if it would rude to not tell the player that
there is romance at all?
For example what FFX did with the affection levels for Rikku, Lulu, and Yuna.
Just wonderin
Also I think it goes without saying, but considering the demographics here I think I should throw it out there; if you have never experienced a long term or serious relationship personally, I wouldn't trust you with writing a love story. It's difficult enough to do it at all, but I wouldn't expect any degree of a competent love story from some virgin in their 20s.
Honestly, I think if you manage to get someone talking about your game/some aspect of it that much, I'd reckon it isn't really a bad thing. The Love Triangle of FFVII is probably one of the gayest things I've ever seen in a fandom, but it is PR and one of the most active corners of any of SE's games. Controversy that gets people talking is the shit!
No, not all that. Just the way it was handled and presented.
Plus, when having several love interests, you either risk pissing off people who think you ended up with the "wrong" pairing (or having people write loads of fan-fiction were the opposite of what you wrote happens, which is just as bad)
Honestly, I think if you manage to get someone talking about your game/some aspect of it that much, I'd reckon it isn't really a bad thing. The Love Triangle of FFVII is probably one of the gayest things I've ever seen in a fandom, but it is PR and one of the most active corners of any of SE's games. Controversy that gets people talking is the shit!
You mean that dumb adam and eve crap? Really?
I don't buy it.
No, not all that. Just the way it was handled and presented.
You mean that dumb adam and eve crap? Really?
I don't buy it.
Hey amigo - did you even play the game?
~ xenogears disc 1 fan
post=148024post=148010This is either because you are not thinking or you haven't played enough.
The Love Plus thing has nothing to do with what I said.
I also cannot think of a single good FF or FE love story, and a game having a love triangle does not mean it is good at what it does.
Heard of the infamous Cloud, Tifa, Aries triangle? They've made movies on it.
FE protagonistxdragon girl?
Stop being so pessimistic and rude.
There is a difference between 'having a love interest' and it actually being effective. Tons of games, especially RPGs, have love interests, but very few games effectively pulled it off. When the best example you can think of is fucking Lufia (1993), you know there is a problem.
Also I think it goes without saying, but considering the demographics here I think I should throw it out there; if you have never experienced a long term or serious relationship personally, I wouldn't trust you with writing a love story. It's difficult enough to do it at all, but I wouldn't expect any degree of a competent love story from some virgin in their 20s.
I was wondering whether or not I should respond to this, but what the hell.
Ever experience action movie explosions while jumping from a roof into a helicopter? Ever have to fend off a crazed killer inside an abandoned house because it is hailing outside and your car is broke down and your cell has no service? Look on the top 250 list at imdb. How many of the stories do you see were written by people who did not experience them?
I hear this myth from people who really don't get what writing is about a lot. Like action-adventure or horror, romance IS a standard genre, but unlike action-adventure and horror, it relies on the higher emotional states, not the visceral. That is, it is more internal than it is external. Besides plot structure and character archetypes, that is the only difference. Workable formulas for romance have all been codified. Read some shitty harlequin romance sometime. It won't give you the pleasure of seeing a truly good romance, but they got it down to formula quite nicely, and it is far better than what you'd see in most game writing.
Now the question is, do people regularly experience what happens in romance story? Fuck no. Relying on your real experiences for a piece of fiction will only get you so far (and for many of us, nowhere), much less for something as fickle and personal (and often, temporary, because like all emotions it is temporary) as love. If you want to talk about a genuine, true love, with accompanying healthy relationship etc., a relative small minority has actually experienced that.
For example, an analysis of a common formulaic convention: it is generally more interesting if the nerd has to overcome his social anxiety to approach the nice girl (whether or not he succeeds) than the dumb jock getting the rich bitch by acting like himself. And yet, in reality, the latter is probably more common in real life. But the former is still more interesting to us, because it requires character development. If you want the latter to be more interesting, switch it up, make the jock go after a nerdy girl who has no interest in him at first. That will be more interesting to us too, because it requires some degree of character development and interaction and learning on the part of characters. They need to fight first (verbally) to even begin to understand eachother. Very few relationships in real life start that way. Just look at our divorce rates.
As for games, the problem with romance in games isn't that there is romance in games (which might be what I am sounding like at this point), it is that they often forget the most important part of the romance. You know, the falling in love part. The part with actual character development. But most games are totally content with the awful 'fated pairing' cliche, or support two characters with bad appeal or synergy. That is why romance in video games tends to suck so bad. It is about writing skill, not having some vague preconception of what a relationship is like because you have experienced some decidedly uninteresting variant of it in real life.
I hear this myth from people who really don't get what writing is about a lot. Like action-adventure or horror, romance IS a standard archetype, but unlike action-adventure and horror, it relies on the higher emotional states, not the visceral. That is, it is more internal than it is external. Besides plot structure and character archetypes, that is the only difference. Workable formulas for romance have all been codified. Read some shitty harlequin romance sometime. It won't give you the pleasure of seeing a truly good romance, but they got it down to formula quite nicely, and it is far better than what you'd see in most game writing.
Now the question is, do people regularly experience what happens in romance story? Fuck no. Relying on your real experiences for a piece of fiction will only get you so far (and for many of us, nowhere), much less for something as fickle and personal (and often, temporary, because like all emotions it is temporary) as love. If you want to talk about a genuine, true love, with accompanying healthy relationship etc., a relative small minority has actually experienced that.
For example, an analysis of a common formulaic convention: it is generally more interesting if the nerd has to overcome his social anxiety to approach the nice girl (whether or not he succeeds) than the dumb jock getting the rich bitch by acting like himself. And yet, in reality, the latter is probably more common in real life. But the former is still more interesting to us, because it requires character development. If you want the latter to be more interesting, switch it up, make the jock go after a nerdy girl who has no interest in him at first. That will be more interesting to us too, because it requires some degree of character development and interaction and learning on the part of characters. They need to fight first (verbally) to even begin to understand eachother. Very few relationships in real life start that way. Just look at our divorce rates.
As for games, the problem with romance in games isn't that there is romance in games (which might be what I am sounding like at this point), it is that they often forget the most important part of the romance. You know, the falling in love part. The part with actual character development. But most games are totally content with the awful 'fated pairing' cliche, or support two characters with bad appeal or synergy. That is why romance in video games tends to suck so bad. It is about writing skill, not having some vague preconception of what a relationship is like because you have experienced some decidedly uninteresting variant of it in real life.
I hear this myth from people who really don't get what writing is about a lot. Like action-adventure or horror, romance IS a standard archetype, but unlike action-adventure and horror, it relies on the higher emotional states, not the visceral. That is, it is more internal than it is external. Besides plot structure and character archetypes, that is the only difference. Workable formulas for romance have all been codified. Read some shitty harlequin romance sometime. It won't give you the pleasure of seeing a truly good romance, but they got it down to formula quite nicely, and it is far better than what you'd see in most game writing.
Now the question is, do people regularly experience what happens in romance story? Fuck no. Relying on your real experiences for a piece of fiction will only get you so far (and for many of us, nowhere), much less for something as fickle and personal (and often, temporary, because like all emotions it is temporary) as love. If you want to talk about a genuine, true love, with accompanying healthy relationship etc., a relative small minority has actually experienced that.
For example, an analysis of a common formulaic convention: it is generally more interesting if the nerd has to overcome his social anxiety to approach the nice girl (whether or not he succeeds) than the dumb jock getting the rich bitch by acting like himself. And yet, in reality, the latter is probably more common in real life. But the former is still more interesting to us, because it requires character development. If you want the latter to be more interesting, switch it up, make the jock go after a nerdy girl who has no interest in him at first. That will be more interesting to us too, because it requires some degree of character development and interaction and learning on the part of characters. They need to fight first (verbally) to even begin to understand eachother. Very few relationships in real life start that way. Just look at our divorce rates.
As for games, the problem with romance in games isn't that there is romance in games (which might be what I am sounding like at this point), it is that they often forget the most important part of the romance. You know, the falling in love part. The part with actual character development. But most games are totally content with the awful 'fated pairing' cliche, or support two characters with bad appeal or synergy. That is why romance in video games tends to suck so bad. It is about writing skill, not having some vague preconception of what a relationship is like because you have experienced some decidedly uninteresting variant of it in real life.
The thing is I'm big on the 'write what you know' aspect of writing and I feel that love, attraction, romance, sex, etc etc, is one of those interpersonal things that you kinda have to have experienced to have a real shot at doing it right. Sure, you could pull it off if you were a really, really good writer or really, really good at observing it, but unlike helicopter explosions, axe murderers, and kung fu action, interpersonal relationships, attraction, sex, and the generalities of romance is, when it comes down to it, really, really basic shit in most peoples lives that comes more and more standard as you get older. I'd have as much faith in someone who's never touched/interacted with someone romantically/sexually/flirtation/etc to write a good love story as much as I'd trust someone who's never seen a car before to fix it.
Sure, it's possible, but eh...I see what you're saying Karsuman, but love and romance and all the shit that comes with it is so basic to human interaction that it's hard to swallow someone being able to write it when they've never done it!
This response wasn't as nearly as well thought out as I would have liked it to be, so if you or anyone else wants to discuss this further, by all means!
Darken
3952
No offense, but to me "write what you know" is usually for people who don't know what to even write about.
I have never heard that interpretation of the saying! I always just took it for what it says; writing what you know about and have personally experienced is a step up.
That isn't what "write what you know" means. It means that you shouldn't try to write something you have no understanding of. A good example is a lot of writers like to write rape scenes as a source of drama (I'm looking at you, Karsu =P). But more often than not this is done without any understanding of what being raped is like or the effects it can have on a person. I am not saying you need to have been raped to be able to write a scene about rape, I am saying don't write a scene like this if you have no appreciation for the seriousness or have no frame of reference through which to consider the subject matter. The same goes for romance. The kind of romance that makes for a fulfilling "love story" is very different from the kind of every day love people experience. It is about character development, as Karsuman said. You don't need to have been in love to appreciate the details of what goes into a good love story and understand them. It's more about good writing. If you can't write two interesting characters, then it doesn't matter how much sex you've had or the number of girlfriends you've had, you're probably not going to capture a decent romance into prose.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I thought the romance angle in Xenogears was done pretty horribly. This is really a problem considering this romance is at the heart of pretty much everything that has ever happened in the game's universe. The reason for this is because Elly is one of the most flat, boring characters I have ever seen. I have to give her some credit, though, she was much more interesting as an antagonist. I often wished this cool Elly form earlier in the game would resurface and replace the painfully bland Elly that the game was forcing my character into a romance with. (seriously, I am trying ot think of one interesting or noteworthy thing she said or did in the entire game and I can't think of anything.) If you have to have a long expository sequence explaining that your characters are in love, you have failed. It seemed like Fei and Elly got together because they were cosmically forced to, rather than having any genuine interest in each other.
Karsuman brought up Lufia and the fortress of Doom which I think is a great example of romance done right, and probably the best I've ever seen in an RPG. It's easy to judge Lufia harshly in hindsight and label it as a generic grindfest, but when it first came out, it was really something different. This was the first game I remembered which actually had developed characters that actually talked to each other about things other than the need to go get the Amulet of Kickassery from the Cave of Dark Smelly Evilness.
Most games completely forgo any elements that make for real romantic interactions in their characters, settling for coy smiles or awkward silences, ham-fisted attempts at sexual tension that never convince me these characters have any real affection for each other outside of the most basic, physical level. Lufia doesn't do this. This game actually convinces me that the two leads have honest affection for each other. They have tea together. He knows her favorite flower. She cooks for him, and he compliments her on it even when it is implied to be terrible. She yells at him when he does stupid things and puts himself in danger, not out of the need to fulfill the tsundere necessity of bitchiness for the sake of being bitchy, but because she honestly cares about him and doesn't want him to get hurt. He reacts similarly when she wants to join him on his quest. He doesn't want her to get hurt, and fears he isn't strong enough to protect her. They are honest with each other. He never has to prove he cares for her by charging heroically into a dungeon and rescuing her from evil. This romance is so well-done that I feel it is one of the best I've ever seen without either character ever having to admit their feelings to the other directly. What about other RPG romances? Do you think your hero even knows his love interest's middle name? Or her birthday? Or her favorite food, or if she likes to read, or her hometown or what her family is like? (assuming these things are not plot points.) Probably not.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I thought the romance angle in Xenogears was done pretty horribly. This is really a problem considering this romance is at the heart of pretty much everything that has ever happened in the game's universe. The reason for this is because Elly is one of the most flat, boring characters I have ever seen. I have to give her some credit, though, she was much more interesting as an antagonist. I often wished this cool Elly form earlier in the game would resurface and replace the painfully bland Elly that the game was forcing my character into a romance with. (seriously, I am trying ot think of one interesting or noteworthy thing she said or did in the entire game and I can't think of anything.) If you have to have a long expository sequence explaining that your characters are in love, you have failed. It seemed like Fei and Elly got together because they were cosmically forced to, rather than having any genuine interest in each other.
Karsuman brought up Lufia and the fortress of Doom which I think is a great example of romance done right, and probably the best I've ever seen in an RPG. It's easy to judge Lufia harshly in hindsight and label it as a generic grindfest, but when it first came out, it was really something different. This was the first game I remembered which actually had developed characters that actually talked to each other about things other than the need to go get the Amulet of Kickassery from the Cave of Dark Smelly Evilness.
Most games completely forgo any elements that make for real romantic interactions in their characters, settling for coy smiles or awkward silences, ham-fisted attempts at sexual tension that never convince me these characters have any real affection for each other outside of the most basic, physical level. Lufia doesn't do this. This game actually convinces me that the two leads have honest affection for each other. They have tea together. He knows her favorite flower. She cooks for him, and he compliments her on it even when it is implied to be terrible. She yells at him when he does stupid things and puts himself in danger, not out of the need to fulfill the tsundere necessity of bitchiness for the sake of being bitchy, but because she honestly cares about him and doesn't want him to get hurt. He reacts similarly when she wants to join him on his quest. He doesn't want her to get hurt, and fears he isn't strong enough to protect her. They are honest with each other. He never has to prove he cares for her by charging heroically into a dungeon and rescuing her from evil. This romance is so well-done that I feel it is one of the best I've ever seen without either character ever having to admit their feelings to the other directly. What about other RPG romances? Do you think your hero even knows his love interest's middle name? Or her birthday? Or her favorite food, or if she likes to read, or her hometown or what her family is like? (assuming these things are not plot points.) Probably not.
If you can't write two interesting characters, then it doesn't matter how much sex you've had or girlfriends you've had, you're probably not going to capture a decent romance into prose.
I'm not saying that being familiar with romance or relationships gives you a free pass to not to know how to write, but having experienced a real life degree of it, or at least have a real appreciation for it or a frame of reference, is sort of a requirement, which goes along with the definition of 'write what you know' that you outlined.
The kind of romance that makes for a fulfilling "love story" is very different from the kind of every day love people experience.
Which is pretty much why I don't really like a lot of 'love stories' in media, it seems fake and forced. I'm more of a guy who enjoys the real reality of love and relationships, which is less of romantic monologues and baking cookies and all that shit and more of bickering, confused feelings, sexual frustration, having to convince their friends of the other, etc. At least, with younger couples in our age range.
...Which is why I liked Xenogear's romance. Fei and Elly bicker and fight quite often, all throughout the game. Fei has to convince Bart, his best friend, that she isn't full of shit. They eventually sleep with each other (which is significant to me because with all of these romance stories in RPGs, most of the involved parties don't seem to touch each other at all, with FFVII being a notable exception with Cloud and Tifa under the airship at the end), they shoot the breeze with random conversations. They show genuine concern over each other, even when they're at odds.
Yes, it sort of devolves into Elly and Fei professing their generic love to each other whilst sitting in chairs and being cosmically bound to each other, but they have their moments.
post=148071
I'm not saying that being familiar with romance or relationships gives you a free pass to not to know how to write, but having experienced a real life degree of it, or at least have a real appreciation for it or a frame of reference, is sort of a requirement, which goes along with the definition of 'write what you know' that you outlined.
Yeah this is kind of what I was trying to say too, sorry if I was unclear on this.
They eventually sleep with each other (which is significant to me because with all of these romance stories in RPGs, most of the involved parties don't seem to touch each other at all, with FFVII being a notable exception with Cloud and Tifa under the airship at the end), they shoot the breeze with random conversations. They show genuine concern over each other, even when they're at odds.
Sex, in my personal opinion, is the least important part of a relationship arc, because, if the writing has done its job and we understand that the characters are in love, sex is just the natural progression of the development of their relationship. If sex is the focal point of a relationship, I am going to question what else they even see in each other. This is something I don't like in most forms of media because sex is so often the turning point of two characters' relationship. Characters should have sex because they're in love, not decide they're in love because they had sex.
Sex, in my personal opinion, is the least important part of a relationship arc, because, if the writing has done its job and we understand that the characters are in love, sex is just the natural progression/conclusion of all the other feeling they have for each other. If sex is the focal point of a relationship, I am going to question what else they even see in each other. This is something I don't like in most forms of media because sex is so often the turning point of two characters' relationship. Characters should have sex because they're in love, not decide they're in love because they had sex.
True, but I don't mean to postulate that sex is the most important part of a relationship arc in writing (although it is one of the most important aspects of a real life adult relationship), I'm just stating it because physical intimacy IS flat out one of the most important parts of any actual, adult relationship, period, and a lot of relationships in media, especially in RPGs, sort of give the impression that these two characters who are DEEPLY IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER never touch each other, short of a hug or a longing glance or some shit.
Xenogears handled it well; Fei and Elly, after getting to know each other, later in the game they consummate their shit and they bang. The end. The act is not made a big deal of and not referenced in the game later on, and they move about their business. As far as the player is concerned, who knows, from that point on they could have been doing the nasty every night in game time from there on in, but it puts it out there to reinforce that "These are two adults who feel strongly about one another, and this is the point where their relationship has gotten". And they keep it movin'!
Even where such a relationship is implied tastefully, it can speak volumes. Early in Xenogears, there is a scene where Ramsus has a bad dream and he wakes up in bed (neither who are wearing anything, except Ramsus is wearing black briefs, shown when he gets up and leaves the room) next to Miang, who consoles him. This scene and placement immediately lets the player know about these two characters; "Oh, so that's how it is between these two", without any hanky panky or tasteless implications whatsoever. The scene in question just has Ramsus waking up from the dream, some conversation, he leaves, and so on (actually Grahf teleports in after Ramsus leaves and talks some shit, but that's another thing entirely).
It lets the player know early in their introduction that Ramsus and Miang are romantically involved (and sets up a subplot later on) without any in your face or tasteless shit at all. See? Two characters are immediately established to be in a relationship in one scene about 5 hours into the game without any cheesy dialogue, love scenes, or longing glances.
I think the fact that that issue (which is once again, a very integral and realistic aspect of relationships) is dealt with and they keep it going is pretty nice. But the sexual aspect of romance plots is just one aspect I threw out there and certainly not the focal point of my argument.
In general I can do without "romantic subplots" entirely.
But I felt that the multiple love interests in FFVII worked pretty well. I am unfairly prejudiced in that game's favor, though, I played it at a very formative age.
Romeo and Juliet.
But I felt that the multiple love interests in FFVII worked pretty well. I am unfairly prejudiced in that game's favor, though, I played it at a very formative age.
Sex, in my personal opinion, is the least important part of a relationship arc, because, if the writing has done its job and we understand that the characters are in love, sex is just the natural progression/conclusion of the development of their relationship. If sex is the focal point of a relationship, I am going to question what else they even see in each other. This is something I don't like in most forms of media because sex is so often the turning point of two characters' relationship. Characters should have sex because they're in love, not decide they're in love because they had sex.
Romeo and Juliet.
FFVII has a love triangle?
Can you guys even remember an instance where Aeris and Tifa interact? I sure can't.
As for Fei and Elly and the Xenogears' romance, the problem with that is Elly is one of the most dreadfully boring characters imaginable.
Har har.
Can you guys even remember an instance where Aeris and Tifa interact? I sure can't.
As for Fei and Elly and the Xenogears' romance, the problem with that is Elly is one of the most dreadfully boring characters imaginable.
writers like to write rape scenes as a source of drama (I'm looking at you, Karsu =P).
Har har.
Can you guys even remember an instance where Aeris and Tifa interact? I sure can't.
I'll admit romance as a genre is pretty remote from my experience both as a viewer/reader and a writer/creator.
Do the female components of a two girls, one guy type love triangle often interact?
