GO MAKE ME A SANDWICH: SEXUALITY IN BAYONETTA (AND OTHER GAMES)

Posts

treeghost
a lot better than being a wapanese kiddo
38
author=Craze
Do you straight men actually find this appealing or worthwhile?
http://i.imgur.com/cxyTp.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/mainpage3vnuy.png

damn i love those boobies
even homosexuals would love to sleep on them, better then pillows!

Only ugly chicks are offended by hot video games chicks.

tell 'em

And it's the opposite: female characters shouldn't be boring and normal, they should be awesome. But it's hard to find female characters that are awesome and not portrayed in a sexualized way, which are the minority between submissive, helpless, skimpy clothed, and with exagerated body parts.

ok hold on, you want some otakus from sega, konami or whatever to create a woman who isn't potrayed in a sexualized way? oh so that's why most woman are on the E3 as booth babe bikini models
author=Fallen-Griever
After hearing about the Bechdel Test it really is quite freaky just how much don't pass that test. And it easily becomes something one is really bugged about!
Oh dear... When did people start trying so hard to prevent themselves from being entertained? I don't understand it.
It was 1964, when the first "hipster" came into being.

But you probably never heard of him, he's so underground.
author=Versalia
author=Kindredz
Btw, trying to show people that what they like is wrong or silly is quite the irony coming from a homosexual.
hey do you know why that's a silly argument

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

maybe think before opening your mouth ever again.

Person A: I think this is wrong.
Person B: You are guilty of other things that I think are wrong.
Person A: You're right, obviously I have no grounds to speak on any topic whatsoever.

That might fit, except for the fact that I'm not person B. I was merely pointing out the fact that Craze was being hypocritical.

Btw, I heard a rumor that smart people use wikipedia to back up an argument...turns out it was a lie. That's almost as bad as the entire debate that's being forced in this very thread about that useless blog.

author=newdisciples
He didn't mean he thinks homosexuality is wrong, I'm pretty sure. He meant that homosexuals are often faced with having to defend themselves against the idea that homosexuality is wrong. I'll fix it for him:

Btw, trying to show people that what they like is wrong or silly is quite the irony coming from a homosexual, as I'm sure you've had to defend yourself to similar attacks in the past.

Thank you.
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
author=Kindredz
I was merely pointing out the "fact" that Craze was being hypocritical
did you read anything I typed. there is seriously nothing hypocritical about simply being gay and also discussing matters of sexuality.
author=Versalia
this would only matter if Craze was a ridiculously over-sexualized mega-muscle shining Herculean hunk and made games with men like that and then brought this up about females.
what are you trying to add to the conversation? are you casting aspersions on craze's opinions because of this perceived hypocrisy? because that's what it seems like, and if it is not your intent, you are saying literally nothing about the discussion one way or the other.

edit for size and obtuseness of audience

can we get back to discussing the issue at hand and not whether or not it is ironic or hypocritical for someone to be involved in the discussion at all?
author=Fallen-Griever
After hearing about the Bechdel Test it really is quite freaky just how much don't pass that test. And it easily becomes something one is really bugged about!
Oh dear... When did people start trying so hard to prevent themselves from being entertained? I don't understand it.

It's like when you know too much about a subject it becomes harder to enjoy. Like if you do a lot of game design whenever you play a game you think about what the designer thought. Or if you are a sound guy all you can see on a televised concert is the kind of microphone they use.

Once you've seen it you can't unsee it.
Dudesoft
always a dudesoft, never a soft dude.
6309
Fap fap fap
This thread has so many funny things in it.

Also @Shinan, the fact that the Bechtel Test video chick was pretty cute made me laugh to myself.
We should get the girls of RMN in here to see what they have to say on the subject.

author=Craze
Do you straight men actually find this appealing or worthwhile?

Yes. I am a heterosexual male so it practically goes without saying; doesn't matter that their unrealistically proportioned...for the most part, at least. I don't personally need sexualized female characters in a game that has female characters to enjoy it, though. And now, I feel obligated to point you folks back to an example of a fictional female character I like:

- Rukia Kuchiki from Tite Kubo's Bleach:

Don't worry it's SFW


Now, you probably wouldn't know it without watching the anime or reading the manga, but Rukia isn't overly sexualized at all. In fact, this is something that Kubo does well and in moderation with Bleach: he has both voluptuous and not-very-voluptuous female characters in the story.
For me, a character's personality is much more appealing to me than their OMG SUPAH HAWT BODY...if they even have one, which Rukia does not. You may ask what does this have to do with the topic? Well, simply put, since personality is more important, what do you think that means? That's right, a female character's personality is more attractive to me than their body.
No, that doesn't mean I would find a female character attractive if I think their ugly, but it doesn't mean I would necessarily dislike the character either. They can have redeeming qualities.

My point in all this being some guys--like me--don't necessarily need wholly voluptuous female characters in video games, or any other media, to like the character or to give them incentive to play through it.

Of course, this whole argument falls apart when you realize guys like me are probably in the minority. =/
The games will be made as inappropriately as sells.

As long as the audience for those games is males who haven't really sexually matured or find that level of overbearing 'ripeness' attractive, they'll continue to make it - because it sells.

Is it unfair? Yes. But so is most of life, because you can rarely find a global 'fair.'

This question is a comparison of morals and people's view on life and the opposite gender and sex. There is no real answer or consensus with even as non-diverse a crowd as we have. If you posted this on a forum for middle-aged salary men and soccer-moms, your response would be the overwhelming opposite of this - they'd make points about how it teaches children to expect these standards and makes girls feel depressed about their reality, and boys think sexual prowess is a defining feature of their gender.

And both sides have perfectly valid points - this kind of thing DOES affect children, teenagers, college-age students, and even adults. Anyone who thinks media doesn't really control them to some extent are just deceiving themselves (if you think not, ask yourself if you find the current societal 'standard' attractive - hundreds of years ago a 'motherly' figure was considered amazingly attractive.)

But it isn't fair to say you can't over-sexualize women if that how you want to represent them. If you want to create something and you want to objectify women, that's your right. Same if you want them all to be ugly and horrendously obese.

These are all questions with no 'right' answer - artists need to consider the lessons they're teaching and parents need to be more responsible for what their children experience and educate them properly.

ADDITION:
Regarding Bayonetta - my wife and I both liked the game and felt the way they presented it was fine - you knew exactly what it was about and they represented her strongly as powerful and comfortable in her sexuality.

She actually made sense as a character - she may have been quite flirtatious, but the rest of her character supported it, versus say a super shy character that's afraid of men but is constantly wearing skimpy clothing and getting herself into questionable situations.
Or someone CAN be sexually mature and still see it for what it is - fiction. There comes a point when you either argue against your base entertainment needs and wants, or you do not. Many people can differentiate between fact and fiction. I know it's all fiction. I know "scantily clad females" and "bishonen males" are just part of the package. Are they stand-ins for real life? No, and I have no problems discerning between the two.

There are many video games females I can appreciate, such as Tali from ME. You can't see her face, can you? She's not sexualized. She has nice hips, but don't many women? I chose her over Miranda, not for role playing reasons but because that's who attracted me the most in the game I was playing. Other games have other females that I'd prefer over the more sexualized ones, but am I going to argue that scantily clad females are in the game? No, but that's just me.

I can understand why people would be offended, however. I'm not offended, and that's why it becomes awkward when I do find someone who is offended. Do I tell 'em "big f'n deal!" or something similar? I CAN sympathize with the opposite viewpoint, but it's been so beaten in the head over the past couple of months that my sympathy wanes for the most extreme of sides.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
This sort of oversexualization seems pretty ridiculous to me as I am not a fifteen year old boy, but you know what? Even at age thirteen I remember finding this level of gratuitousness pretty obnoxious, and you'd be extremely hard-pressed to find someone nerdier and more repressed than I am. I have to wonder, are people really taken in by these tactics, or is the game industry just overestimating how much of an influence it has?
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
This sort of oversexualization seems pretty ridiculous to me as I am not a fifteen year old boy, but you know what? Even at age thirteen I remember finding this level of gratuitousness pretty obnoxious, and you'd be extremely hard-pressed to find someone nerdier and more repressed than I am.


Are you saying that the reason you find sex grating and obnoxious is because you're nerdy and repressed? I'm not sure how else to interpret this paragraph.

Anyway, what level of oversexualization? Are we talking about Bayonetta or the silly 'Sorceress' character design Craze posted or what?
author=Solitayre
This sort of oversexualization seems pretty ridiculous to me as I am not a fifteen year old boy, but you know what? Even at age thirteen I remember finding this level of gratuitousness pretty obnoxious, and you'd be extremely hard-pressed to find someone nerdier and more repressed than I am. I have to wonder, are people really taken in by these tactics, or is the game industry just overestimating how much of an influence it has?

I believe the game industry overestimates, but obviously, some people are taken in by it. Some people may say sex sells, but I don't see it as a huge factor. If that were true, games like Rumble Roses and Dead or Alive Xtreme would be big hits. They're not. They appeal to a small niche of gamers. Perhaps on a small level they do, but nowhere near enough to make a difference. Most gamers probably don't even bat an eye to this sort of stuff and it becomes a non-issue for 'em. If sexualization happens to be in a game that they enjoy and they did not buy it for that reason, it's up to 'em whether or not it's something morally reprehensible. As I've said before, I don't see the big deal in it. It doesn't change my own views on people, because let's face it, while men aren't as sexualized in video games as much as women, there are hardly any real male role models (or regular men portrayed in a realistic manner) in video games and if you say otherwise, I'd think you were kidding. I don't play games for realism, though.
chana
(Socrates would certainly not contadict me!)
1584
author=Solitayre
is the game industry just overestimating how much of an influence it has?

There's the overestimation, but there's worse (in video games and elsewhere), its : "keep sexism running", its convenient for a lot of men, it also can make a lot of money, that's why its not useless to fight it, we're not only consumers but puppets if we don't beware!
(By the way, I find the author of the blog quite pretty, if that was what under-stood some comment, and anyhow, really, who cares and what does it have to do with the pertinence of her argument!)
author=Shinan
author=Cosmic_Sea
is there not more important things to talk about (world hunger, America land of the free-more people in prison than any other country on the planet, homeless etc etc) rather than waste precious time that could be used making kick-ass games we find ourselves talking about the objectification of women who, dare i say, are...imaginary?
That's a shit argument. Why are you even on this very forum and not helping those poor people instead? You shouldn't be playing video games and enjoying yourself when there are more important issues to spend your time on.




somewhere.)

who said anything about helping?
All i am saying is people are treating this like it actually an issue.
Those are issues, if people are going to get all hot and bothered, do it over those things.
Everybody is so angry anymore but nobody is ever angry about anything real. Feminists are angry because video games women are hott, i mean c'mon we have all seen the best ending to Metroid.
Whether any of you share the opinion or not, we live in a shallow world where ugly people are discriminated against on a regular basis. Ugly people are discriminated against more than any other minority group combined, and ugly people are the majority. Mainly because ugly people don't unite. there is no million ugly march or Al Sharpton esque spokesperson for ugly people. That and Sex is the number one motivational factor for all humankind(and all sexually reproductive organisms in general)
I know somebody is going to say "But wait, the number one drive is to survive."
well that is true, only so we can stay alive long enough to reproduce. Reproduction comes in a close second only because it gives us sense so that... lets say your about to spread your seed and a drug gang shootout starts taking place in your bedroom, survival tells you to go some where safe quiet, and still romantic. Or else you end going "No honey it's fine i am pretty sure we can have this kid faster than the speed of *Piff* *Piff* *piff*

Sex motivates practically everything, people like to complain, and ugly people are not moving on up to deluxe apartment in the sky, and finally have a of the pie.
That is why the Bayonettas of the world exist and will continue to exist.

Anyway, i have to get back to being unproductive and going nowhere in my mothers basement, toodles.
Frankly, I'm all for eyecandy . For guys and girls. I don't want my game women to be realistic for the same reason I don't like "realistic" games: I have to live in the real world everyday and it's boring; A cups are far too common, I can't run at light speed and the last time I ate shrooms... well, I'd like to stop short of self incrimination. let the fan-girls have their long haired guy-girls, and let me have my disproportionate skanks. ahem. In moderation of-course.

maybe as a guy I'm just blind to how much this "supposedly" annoys female gamers. Or maybe I just run into too many anime fan-girls who complain about it, but when I look at their sketchpad it's nothing but yaoi. (sp?) Who knows.

I don't think we'd really be having these types of discussions if people learned to safely distance themselves from fiction. When you do that , it aint so bad.

I agree with SalOMac, I pretty much play games for escapism, if their too realistic its not really escapism and its very boring ( e.g the "boring" Getaway vs "awesome" GTA ) also when it comes to game-girls the reality is that most straight men have and will always be horny and have fantasies about women, when this is portrayed in game characters its not even an issue its just marketing.

I don't mind characters like Rukia Kuchiki as long as it fits personality, its better than just throwing huge tits on every female character then again it shouldn't be mandatory to have every female character made realistic it kills the creativity of it all. I'm sure some fighting games have exaggerated male characters with glistening abs but the point is that women are not really such a large target audience for game developers, and most women don't really care that much about overly-good-looking guys as much as guys care about female-appearance in-fact it intimidates them when a guy looks better than them that's another reason why solid snake doesn't have such stunningly good looks, only homosexuals like that sort of thing ( no offense ).
Adon237
if i had an allowance, i would give it to rmn
1743
author=Cosmic_Sea
is there not more important things to talk about (world hunger, America land of the free-more people in prison than any other country on the planet, homeless etc etc) rather than waste precious time that could be used making kick-ass games we find ourselves talking about the objectification of women who, dare i say, are...imaginary?


Good Point.