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GO MAKE ME A SANDWICH: SEXUALITY IN BAYONETTA (AND OTHER GAMES)
Posts
Perihelion
665
Perihelion
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Closeauthor=Fallen-GrieverWomen are basically required to be attractive in modern visual mediaYeah, that's wrong.
Besides, I'm sure that people like Brad Pitt and Orlando Bloom having amazing acting careers has absolutely zero to do with them being attractive men?
Sometimes people want a character to be pretty. That's just how it is. Works both ways.
Are you disputing that women don't have more pressure to look a certain way than men, especially in entertainment?
But it isn't real. It isn't a real woman, being treated differently. Being portrayed differently. It only is a problem if people take it out of the game into reality and start messing with women, thinking that they should act and look like what they see in games. Then most of the time, someone takes action to fix that.
It is like people getting mad on the net. Oh, being trolled is bad, but you can turn away and then, guess what, it isn't there. I hate, hate, hate people who take offense to something like this, when they can easily turn away. People in general, most of the people, are morons, in this world of ours.
It is like people getting mad on the net. Oh, being trolled is bad, but you can turn away and then, guess what, it isn't there. I hate, hate, hate people who take offense to something like this, when they can easily turn away. People in general, most of the people, are morons, in this world of ours.
author=Perihelionauthor=Fallen-GrieverAre you disputing that women don't have more pressure to look a certain way than men, especially in entertainment?Women are basically required to be attractive in modern visual mediaYeah, that's wrong.
Besides, I'm sure that people like Brad Pitt and Orlando Bloom having amazing acting careers has absolutely zero to do with them being attractive men?
Sometimes people want a character to be pretty. That's just how it is. Works both ways.
I disagree too. Pressure is pressure, but don't make it seem like it is some sort of requirement. Oh I have pressure to, say, lose weight. But is it some requirement that I must? No.
Crap sorry for the double post.
author=Thiamor
But it isn't real. It isn't a real woman, being treated differently. Being portrayed differently. It only is a problem if people take it out of the game into reality and start messing with women, thinking that they should act and look like what they see in games. Then most of the time, someone takes action to fix that.
It is like people getting mad on the net. Oh, being trolled is bad, but you can turn away and then, guess what, it isn't there. I hate, hate, hate people who take offense to something like this, when they can easily turn away. People in general, most of the people, are morons, in this world of ours.
Dude. It's irrelevant whether its real or not. It's still people in a certain race/culture/gender wanting to change their representation in a widely consumed media. It's the same reason why black actors fought against the fact that black actors were hardly ever cast as main characters in movies and why Asian actors are having the same fight now. If its a media you like and consume and enjoy you are going to want to have a stake in it. Why is it okay for us to complain that JRPGs have too many prettyboys, for example, but its certainly whining when women complain that they're made into caricatures in the same media?
Like why can you not understand this.
author=Thiamor
I disagree to. Pressure is pressure
Societal pressure can be quantified.
Darken
3952
Why is it okay for us to complain that JRPGs have too many prettyboys, for example, but its certainly whining when women complain that they're made into caricatures in the same media?
ding ding, this sentence actually changed my understanding a bit.
Societal pressure can be quantified.
Likert scales, bitch. : )
Anyway, my de facto fiance has an interesting perspective on this topic, having been an actual woman for all 24 years of her life, but refuses to post here because she hates the internet. Which is a shame. Because I think her side of the argument and the gender role she is coming from are pretty important. But man oh man does she hate the internet.
Why is it okay for us to complain that JRPGs have too many prettyboys, for example, but its certainly whining when women complain that they're made into caricatures in the same media?
It's okay for all of us to complain about everything all the goddamn time, so we do. I'm pretty sure 'whining' is an equally fair synonym for complaining no matter who's doing it. The right to complain incessantly (and just as frequently do nothing about it) is what makes America such a great country.
author=DarkenWhy is it okay for us to complain that JRPGs have too many prettyboys, for example, but its certainly whining when women complain that they're made into caricatures in the same media?ding ding, this sentence actually changed my understanding a bit.
I always thought it was the women complaining about this because those pretty boys are so scrawny and effeminate.
author=Crimson_Legionnaireauthor=Max McGeeCan you really blame her?
But man oh man does she hate the internet.
Not one iota. I hate it even more. My own continual activity on RMN may be one of the great mysteries of our time.
author=sbesterauthor=DarkenI always thought it was the women complaining about this because those pretty boys are so scrawny and effeminate.Why is it okay for us to complain that JRPGs have too many prettyboys, for example, but its certainly whining when women complain that they're made into caricatures in the same media?ding ding, this sentence actually changed my understanding a bit.
Where have you been? Guys complain about it a hell of a lot. Personally, I don't care (I seem to not care about a lot of things, actually) about how effeminate a male character is. I'm not going to like the character less just because he looks too pretty. That's a trivial matter for me. I would've quit playing so many JRPGs (and later Castlevania games) if that were the case.
author=sbesterauthor=DarkenI always thought it was the women complaining about this because those pretty boys are so scrawny and effeminate.Why is it okay for us to complain that JRPGs have too many prettyboys, for example, but its certainly whining when women complain that they're made into caricatures in the same media?ding ding, this sentence actually changed my understanding a bit.
In my experience many gamer chicks prefer their men like that, just look at the male characters in yaois and such.
I guess that's not surprising, I wanted to punch Tidus right in his whiny little face. Monsters did it for me mostly.
Acra
332
author=Emanazi
I'm sure their a bunch of girly games out their with this whole dream-guy fantasy going on
Yes, there's markets aimed at women. Largely horribly, might I add (let's maek everything pink!!!1). And for every Alistar++ there is, there's at least twenty Witch Toucher games to counterbalance it. The thing is, apart from maybe gendered versions of things with dating elements like Harvest Moon (which should be ingrained within the thing anyway, not two separate versions), there shouldn't even BE a firm market divide. A good proxy as usual is movies. Barring a few exceptions, when was the last time an award-winning film was aimed solely at one very specific demographic?
author=Fallen-Griever
do you really think that characters like Bayonetta and Lara Croft being "sexy" is an attempt to put women down?
I again don't know anything about Bayonetta, so I still can't say anything about her. I also know very little about Lara Croft, so I might be skewing things a bit here, but I've at least read that she was originally intended to be taken seriously as essentially a female Indiana Jones. Nothing more, nothing less. What the media did to her (and in turn, her own later games) mostly just made her into a sex icon and little else. Something somewhat similar can be said for Samus' fate of Other M, I believe; taking all the powerful and capable aspects of them and perverting them into something far less. It's not just about sexuality; it's about making them lesser, weaker, unworthy characters. And really, this is my bigger beef here. I've more or less learned to tolerate the whole 'sex sells' thing about women. The thing is, they're still seldom taken seriously as actual humans with abilities, emotions, and goals. Looking good is the sole thing they're there for; little else.
author=Fallen-Griever
Players in games like WoW can often times be ignored...
Technically, it wasn't Warcraft I was talking about there; I suppose I was being vague with my wording. It's in literally everything. Take a game, any game. So long as it has any way to communicate, even vaguely, you can bloody well bet I've received a torrent of sexist remarks from it if there's even the slightest trace that I'm female. Now, I think it's an unwritten fact that the internet in general is a hive of scum and villainy, but by those standards, it's a bit more than should be expected.
I think the best anecdote is from Halo (which admittedly has an especially bad reputation for a poor playerbase, but still). It was some team match, and my allies were all like 'wow, this guy is really awesome' (and yes, they were talking about me, they used my number) and then I got killed within close proximity to them. (the grunts are slightly different for male and female). Literally based on that one grunt alone, they changed immediately to 'that guy was a chick? No wonder she's such a fucking piece of worthless trash'. Sure, I may have screwed up at a crucial moment, but the complete 180 combined with blaming it on gender is quite telltale of something more.
Hell, even in Spiral Knights (something I know you've played, so you know how gender neutral it is), one time I accidentally joined a random party, and quickly got called a 'stupid useless whore' and 'a waste of space' within half a minute, before I had time to do anything or say anything. Perhaps the Angelic armour (it has a long dress and armour everywhere else, but it's still the most feminine piece, barring the pigtail helms) has a particularly bad reputation or said person was particularly foul in general, but still. It's pretty rampant across the whole net. The signs that I'm female turns me from another human or ally into a rotting hunk of flesh that should stay in the kitchen. There's a link between the depiction of women in media and the treatment of women gamers, but, in spite of part of the topic's title, that's not really the main focus here.
The last thing I'll say on this is that I'm more or less totally used to this whole issue, and simply roll my eyes every new time this happens. Obviously, if it truly bugged me, I could just go and hide as a 'man' like the majority of women do and waive all that trouble. But that's never going to make the problem go away permanently. But to the tens of thousands of women who are looking to play real games instead of casual junk like Farmville or Bejeweled, it IS horribly off-putting. I recall some of the Extra Credits episodes relating in some way to women (they've done several) touch on some of these points, and no doubt do a better job than I can.
Let me just say this very clearly here one more time: I'm for attractive characters, female or male. But that shouldn't come at the price of their, well, humanity. Which, in many cases these days, it does.
author=Acra
I think the best anecdote is from Halo (which admittedly has an especially bad reputation for a poor playerbase, but still). It was some team match, and my allies were all like 'wow, this guy is really awesome' (and yes, they were talking about me, they used my number) and then I got killed within close proximity to them. (the grunts are slightly different for male and female). Literally based on that one grunt alone, they changed immediately to 'that guy was a chick? No wonder she's such a fucking piece of worthless trash'. Sure, I may have screwed up at a crucial moment, but the complete 180 combined with blaming it on gender is quite telltale of something more.
Holy shit, as someone who plays video games with girls (in person) I can sure as hell attest to this happening a good 70-90% of the time in online gaming. It's absolutely terrible.
Also Acra is making a lot of fucking sense in this topic pay attention to her.
Blitzen
3253
Perhaps that kind of gender-bashing behaviour could be the result of unsupervised 10-17 year old boys who are playing videogames and because their parents take no active interest in their well-being, have isolated them from positive socialization with females. Would be concordant with the double-income and absent-parented standard of modern Western society, indubitably.
*puff puff*
*puff puff*
Kindredz
7
author=Thiamor
You do know, if a woman gets pissed at a game in this sense, stop freaking paying attention to that game. It isn't like an actual man, being sexually abusive to you, the women, to your face. It is a game in which isn't being forced onto the buyers. If you don't like it and feel it is wrong, you turn your head. It isn't real, and if it were real, would've been stopped already.
Also if you're feeling bad for the FAKE woman in the 'said' game, then you need to get locked up and treated for being mentally insane.
A game, is a game, is a game. No need to start pulling some feminist bullshit out. that would be like Peta being pissed at fake animal abuse.
You're making too much sense so get outta here. People with nothing important to do or think about need something to argue about...lest they realize that they have nothing important to do or think about. I don't know anyone that will accept the fact that they and their thoughts are useless in the grand scheme. Making people feel that they and their thoughts are important and valid...the fuel that America runs on.
deboo
85
author=Fallen-Grieverno it's not. 'ugly' women have no place in the media, whereas it's a different case for men. don't know what world you're living in if you think it's a two way street.Women are basically required to be attractive in modern visual mediaYeah, that's wrong.
author=Fallen-Grieverit's not what they're aiming to do by having women wear skimpy clothing, it's what they are unintentionally doing. i understand the male audience argument but why do so many companies seem to forget that women gamers actually exist and surprise, surprise aren't particularly keen on women who should otherwise gain our respect being blatantly oversexualised in games.
Seriously, though... do you really think that characters like Bayonetta and Lara Croft being "sexy" is an attempt to put women down?
like a lot of other males on this topic have answered, you might not have a problem with it, but you're the audience they're apparently only catering for so err it's kind of a given. as a girl however, it can certainly get to a point wherein it's degrading, as though some women are only really there to cater for the men's desires. not exactly empowering and actually pretty damn isolating.
the Ryu example stated earlier is a completely different issue as he was not nude in the hopes of attracting the opposite sex. i wouldn't have cared if he had been a woman and nude because the intention is different. the double standard argument doesn't hold up.
all this being said, i'm actually not all that offended by most women in videogames because, like Acra, i've learnt to turn my head, but i can understand where 'go make me a sandwich' blog is coming from. Acra pretty much got it dead on about the target audience thing and i am very unsurprised about the story of males ostracising the women in online games too. i imagine it happens pretty frequently.
author=Thiamorman you chat waffle, there's so much i disagree with i just cba
deboo
85
author=Fallen-Grieverwell, when i watch television i assure you the majority of women i see are usually pretty. men don't have the same amount of pressure, at least nowhere near to the same extent. average/'ugly' men are far more acceptable in the media. sure there are some not-so-hot actressess but i don't believe the ratio is equivalent at all.
I could go onto Google and pull loads of images of unattractive actresses and attractive male actors (and vice-versa) but I'm not going to. Don't be daft, there are plenty of ugly people in the media.
