A CIVIL GARDEN PARTY ~ 2K3 DISCUSSION

Familiarity and comfort zone, I think.
I was planning to do my next project in 2k3, but I think I'll move to VX Ace. Then we can have this discussion regarding XP/VX in ten more years.

author=Arandomgamemaker
Well, i use 2K/2K3 because they are free, and they work fine for me. Besides, i don't have the money to use anything else. Ugu.

But they're not free. They're free in the same sense that XP, VX, and Ace are - only if you pirate them.

There's an enormous hypocrisy in frowning on the piracy of XP, VX, and Ace while embracing it for 2k/3. Why this double standard? I'm not trying to start drama, but I want to know how this can possibly be justified.

EDIT: And for the record (and I hate that I have to clarify this, but since people like to take what I say out of context...), I'm against the piracy of any engine, 2k/3 and VXPA alike.

Good topic. Yeah, you asked me that a while ago.

I started with 2k, 95 and Sim Tactics at the same time, switched to 2k3 when it came out and focused on raising my Eventmaking and Pixel Art levels ever since. It took me several years before I became satisfied with my work and shared it though.

I tried my hand at XP and VX in the recent years, but there are mainly 2 reasons why I didn't enjoy making games with these:

1) I don't like the design of their sprites, tilesets and interfaces. It would be mandatory for me to make custom graphics (or use someone else's, like Celianna's for instance) in order to be satisfied with my own work, and that would imply huge amounts of time and efforts.

2) I feel lost when trying to eventcode under XP and VX because of the small changes here and there (that's also why I keep using Windows XP and hate 7). You could call me lazy too. I would really like to learn how to script in order to design games that are closer to the ideas I have in mind but I just give that up whenever I look at a script (and I'd rather do it with Game Maker anyway to maximize possibilities).

And maybe I don't want to go through all of the learning process anymore. It doesn't seem worth the effort to me I guess, since I make games mainly for my own entertainment and hopefully entertain a few people who happen to like what I do.

author=Craze
If you use it, why do you still use it?

Familiarity, and when compared to RMXP/VX, simply being more efficient at using system resources (VXAce apparently fixes this!). Plus, RM2K VALUE! included the best features from RM2K3 without the accompanying bugs so it pretty much satisfies all my needs.

author=Craze
Have you ever thought about switching to a different maker? If so, why have you not? If you have tried a later maker, what made you go back?

Tried both RMXP and RMVX, I had issues with how both of them worked and I never really adopted them. I do admit I like Ruby/RGSS, though.

I plan on trying RMVXAce out at some point, as I hear it fixes a lot of the fundamental problems that XP/VX shouldn't have had in the first place.

author=Craze
If you're an "excellent eventer," why not try your hand at scripting, which is similar (still entirely logic-based!) but immensely more flexible?

Besides RM2K(3) eventing, I have experience in PHP, Ruby (thanks to RGSS), HTML4, CSS1, and CSS2. I personally love RMXP/VX's RGSS and I would've used them if they didn't have so many underlying problems that I couldn't be arsed to tolerate and/or find a workaround for.

I find it daunting and it's frustrating to feel like you're going from competent to incompetent in terms of the quality of output you can muster up. We use RM because of the low barrier to entry and ideally we want to be able to make "whatever we want" and invest a lot of time and energy in getting to a level of skill with the maker whereby we can make faithful recreations of our ideas outside of our heads. I guess it can seem like a major setback to have to go back into learning mode when some of us could just as easily make our ideas in an older engine that we're more familiar with.

Not the best excuse but an honest one.

author=Sailerius

author=Arandomgamemaker
Well, i use 2K/2K3 because they are free, and they work fine for me. Besides, i don't have the money to use anything else. Ugu.

But they're not free. They're free in the same sense that XP, VX, and Ace are - only if you pirate them.

There's an enormous hypocrisy in frowning on the piracy of XP, VX, and Ace while embracing it for 2k/3. Why this double standard? I'm not trying to start drama, but I want to know how this can possibly be justified.

EDIT: And for the record (and I hate that I have to clarify this, but since people like to take what I say out of context...), I'm against the piracy of any engine, 2k/3 and VXPA alike.

It's like if you wanted to watch Spy Groove or play Bio Force Ape. There's no reasonable alternative other than to go to MyFavoritePiracySite.notcom and get it there. One involves trying to find a site in another language that even still sells it and will send it overseas, another involves buying a prototype NES cartridge for what I bought my car for, and another requires a time machine. That said we still don't allow users to post where to get it beyond "Google it" which applies to basically everything. It doesn't help that the 2k3 (2k?) RTP is bundled with the program for idiotic reasons and to play games on about a quarter of the site you need it.

That said I'd rather use Captain N as a comparison because Spy Groove is awesome but alas you can get Captain N off of Amazon.

If you use it, why do you still use it?

Familiarity and comfort. Considering the time I've used it, I pretty much know exactly what to click and what commands need to be used at a moment's notice.

Have you ever thought about switching to a different maker?

All the god damn time. Despite what I can do with 2k3, there has been more than a few moments where I wished all of these 'evented' menus and DBS modifications, and what have you were scripted in XP/VX/Ace

If so, why have you not? If you have tried a later maker, what made you go back?

I've worked with both XP and VX. Making a full game in XP and experimenting with VX.

XP was a trial in patience and fumbling with code I had no idea did what. I somehow managed to complete a full game in the engine despite my near zero knowledge of RGSS and to this day I wonder how I did it...

VX was nice for a time, the experimental game I was making did get my creativity flowing, but in the end, RGSS(2) beat me to the punch. That was all there was to it.

I also tried to make my next 'SE' project in XP and then VX for a good while before finally throwing my hands into the air and turning back to 2K3. The general reason for why I don't use the 'higher' makers is largely RGSS. Which goes on to the next point.

If you're an "excellent eventer," why not try your hand at scripting, which is similar (still entirely logic-based!) but immensely more flexible?

RGSS has so much potential that I can clearly see, and I have ideas for gameplay. But my ideas do not go hand in hand with my knowledge of RGSS and thus whatever I may think of falls flat nearly immediately.

Sure, I suppose that one could always piggyback off of publicly made scripts, but everything I see has little issues that I wish I could address, be it in terms of graphics, or mechanics. Or sometimes I just want to implement my own HUDs over these systems. Things like that. But I can't do it. And that's the thing, I want to do it. Myself.

I'm not sure what the issue is though. I feel like there is some kind of mental block that's preventing me from 'getting' it. Some hurdle that if I could somehow get over, I might be able to get somewhere. But as it is now, I feel overwhelmed every time I open the RGSS editor and see the walls upon walls of colored text, and just immediately close it.

But hours of studying 'beginners RGSS tutorials' and 'Learning ruby in 20 minutes' and 'Poignant guides to ruby' haven't cleared the fog in my mind any. So I'm ready to say that I'm not meant to do it and stick to my 2K3 cave!

Wow that was longer than I figured it would be! And it's kind of whiny...

I have XP and VX, but I use RM2K3. While everyone has their own reasons, I still use RM2K3 because my game is mostly made in it and I'll be damned if I start all over again to use a different maker. If your response is "But you've been working on it for a while, you should have finished it by now!", too fucking bad, I didn't, so RM2K3 it is.

If there was a way to flawlessly convert to another engine, I would, but even that requires time and effort learning a new engine I'd rather spend uh doing something else like reading a book or hanging out downtown or chasing tail or whatever. Once you hit a point in your life where your time is finite and your attention is precious, it's not as simple as "LEARNING A NEW ENGINE IS EASY ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SIT AT THE COMPUTER FOR A FEW HOURS" naw homie.

I get a headache watching the screen move along in XP and VX.

I still use Rm2k3 because I'm stubborn, I use what I learnt with. RPG Maker got me into game making now I that I program in Java I don't see the reason for any RPG Maker but I still use Rm2k3 I don't know why...

The advantages of using the more later versions of RPG Maker are pretty obvious as well as flexible but one thing with me is that I learnt how to sprite for RPG Maker 2003 resolution only, I cannot draw for the resolution of XP/VX/ACE it's a lot bigger and I don't know how to draw for those resolutions.

Apart from the graphics gripe I dislike the graphics used in all of the later versions although it hasn't stopped me from playing games made in those versions I would hate for me to make a game with those graphics, not a fan of the default XP/VX RTP.

Most of all I'm too used to the layout and where things are GUI-wise and I feel at ease after so many years of using it. I am lost in the GUI of XP/VX especially when it comes to eventing, scripting and etc. All in all I'm very familiar with RPG Maker and it's limits and how it works whereas with any other engine I'm not.