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CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS IN YOUR GAME
Posts
Jaguer91
87
Jaguer91
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CloseWell, I'd like to know your thoughts on this, what do you think about adding controversial topics in your game? By controversial I mean topics that might be taken like offensive or unpleasant for some people.
I'll give some examples BUT keep in mind I don't think MOST of them are offensive or unpleasant at all, nonetheless some people will dislike them. Some examples are: homosexuality, racism, dark humor, sexism, incest, blasphemy, etc.
I, myself, don't mind a game with any of these topics, in fact the game I'm working on will have some of them (yeah, some characters are gay). So what do you think? Would play a game with these topics? Why yes or not? What about your own game? Discuss
I'll give some examples BUT keep in mind I don't think MOST of them are offensive or unpleasant at all, nonetheless some people will dislike them. Some examples are: homosexuality, racism, dark humor, sexism, incest, blasphemy, etc.
I, myself, don't mind a game with any of these topics, in fact the game I'm working on will have some of them (yeah, some characters are gay). So what do you think? Would play a game with these topics? Why yes or not? What about your own game? Discuss
I'm currently making a game with gay characters ^_^ I've posted a few demos, and I haven't had any real problems with it so far.
eplipswich
2728
That's what makes independent games separate from commercial games. It's that independent games have more freedom to express themselves than commercial games. So, having said that, I don't mind playing one.
In fact, the game I'm currently translating has quite a number of disturbing topics like necrophilia, sexism, cannibalism, pessimism, nihilism etc. And yet, the game is generally well-received and popular in the original language's community. International-wise, it's getting there :)
In fact, the game I'm currently translating has quite a number of disturbing topics like necrophilia, sexism, cannibalism, pessimism, nihilism etc. And yet, the game is generally well-received and popular in the original language's community. International-wise, it's getting there :)
I think - and recommend - using trigger topics carefully. Don't just use them for the sake of having them in your game. That is, if you just shove in a token gay man for the sake of having Mr. Token Gay Man it will - more often than not - come off as both shallow and, possibly, insulting.
Gratuitous use of any touchy topic can come off as unnecessary and often either/or hokey, rude and crude.
That said, I fully support people using the topics in their games if they fit.
Personally I've touched on topics such as rape, pregnancy by rape, homosexual relationships, homosexual characters, racism and the like in my own games. The way I've used them is to be careful in how I get the message and insinuation of the actions across without making it overt and a mockery.
On the rape topic I never actually say straight out that the character was raped, but I do insinuate it via sound and monologue - no actual physical sign of it, bar the pregnancy.
When it comes to homosexuality, I treat it like I would a straight romance - because that's basically what it is. It's love and should not even be considered a trigger topic. As with any relationship, handling it with respect is the key.
It can be hard dealing with certain topics, but treating them with the respect they deserve and not making a mockery of such topics is the best way to use them.
As for playing games with those topics - I have no issue with it myself. When asked for game recommendations I always put in a rec for Beautiful Escape: Dungeoneer because it's one of these kinds of games that does such topics well, causing the player to question the rightness of what they are doing as the character.
Gratuitous use of any touchy topic can come off as unnecessary and often either/or hokey, rude and crude.
That said, I fully support people using the topics in their games if they fit.
Personally I've touched on topics such as rape, pregnancy by rape, homosexual relationships, homosexual characters, racism and the like in my own games. The way I've used them is to be careful in how I get the message and insinuation of the actions across without making it overt and a mockery.
On the rape topic I never actually say straight out that the character was raped, but I do insinuate it via sound and monologue - no actual physical sign of it, bar the pregnancy.
When it comes to homosexuality, I treat it like I would a straight romance - because that's basically what it is. It's love and should not even be considered a trigger topic. As with any relationship, handling it with respect is the key.
It can be hard dealing with certain topics, but treating them with the respect they deserve and not making a mockery of such topics is the best way to use them.
As for playing games with those topics - I have no issue with it myself. When asked for game recommendations I always put in a rec for Beautiful Escape: Dungeoneer because it's one of these kinds of games that does such topics well, causing the player to question the rightness of what they are doing as the character.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Liberty, your advice is very good if the issue comes up in the game as something that the author feels negatively about and wants to tread lightly on.
But a lot of people will think of other controversial topics the way you think of homosexuality. Would you approve of someone who treated their rapist, incestual, pedophilic, or abusive character the way you would treat homosexual characters? What if they see it as something that society would frown on, but really should not be a big deal, and so they treat it the same way as any other romance?
A better question: Is that something you would allow on RMN? Where would you draw the line?
I think that some people put such topics in their games, not because they meaningfully add to the story, but because the author wants to build a world where people treat specific things as acceptable. They either long for such a world, or at least think that the idea of one is cool. So in their ideal world, which they've brought to life in their game, wicca or anarchy or public nudity or whatever is totally normal and no one bats an eye. I've seen this done (in all kinds of works, not just games) with subjects ranging the full gamut of weirdness, from public pooping to making it legal to kill anyone weaker than yourself.
If you do this, I guess my advice is, expect a lot of hate mail. Some people will appreciate it and enjoy the world you've made, some people won't be turned off enough to stop playing, and some people will organize /b/ into getting you fired and vandalizing your house.
But a lot of people will think of other controversial topics the way you think of homosexuality. Would you approve of someone who treated their rapist, incestual, pedophilic, or abusive character the way you would treat homosexual characters? What if they see it as something that society would frown on, but really should not be a big deal, and so they treat it the same way as any other romance?
A better question: Is that something you would allow on RMN? Where would you draw the line?
I think that some people put such topics in their games, not because they meaningfully add to the story, but because the author wants to build a world where people treat specific things as acceptable. They either long for such a world, or at least think that the idea of one is cool. So in their ideal world, which they've brought to life in their game, wicca or anarchy or public nudity or whatever is totally normal and no one bats an eye. I've seen this done (in all kinds of works, not just games) with subjects ranging the full gamut of weirdness, from public pooping to making it legal to kill anyone weaker than yourself.
If you do this, I guess my advice is, expect a lot of hate mail. Some people will appreciate it and enjoy the world you've made, some people won't be turned off enough to stop playing, and some people will organize /b/ into getting you fired and vandalizing your house.
LockeZ has touched on a very important point. If the behaviour that you are depicting is executed in a manner that treats it morally as it should in the real world, more people will find it acceptable. As soon as you start implying insinuations such as "racism is good" or "killing innocent people actually is OK sometimes", then the issue starts to become a concern. I think that today's society treats homosexuality in an encouraging manner, so there should be no problem there except to treat it as a normal relationship, as Liberty said. In fact, you may get some brownie points from LBGT supporters if you include such references, but I'm not going to touch on that topic.
That said, there should be some degree of artistic license that you can give yourself, in that you don't have to play it 100% safe all the time. Pushing the boundaries is sometimes important to make players think about what is actually right and/or wrong. I think that's one of the most important things media can do in general, and games tend to skimp out on that factor very often, due to the nature of them just being called play-things for many years. So remember that you should be an auteur - your vision is being portrayed through this art, and it reveals *you* whether you like it or not.
There have been instances of this that I personally don't believe in, such as the seedier portions of Japanese manga, because I don't think it's healthy for people to expose themselves to so much obscenity that it starts to seep into their moral consciousness. That is just my opinion, but from what I have observed in this world, it is generally true. I, personally, would like to see more games that realistically edify morality (or whatever you may call doing good in your particular worldview, assuming you believe good exists) and help this world be a better place. My bottom line is: is this game making the world a better place? If it is, then release it. If it's not, then perhaps keep it hidden.
That said, I do believe that the expression of art in itself is one of the most fundamental rights of humanity that needs to be exercised, as much as speech. I don't know if there's such a thing as "freedom to art", but I hope there is.
That said, there should be some degree of artistic license that you can give yourself, in that you don't have to play it 100% safe all the time. Pushing the boundaries is sometimes important to make players think about what is actually right and/or wrong. I think that's one of the most important things media can do in general, and games tend to skimp out on that factor very often, due to the nature of them just being called play-things for many years. So remember that you should be an auteur - your vision is being portrayed through this art, and it reveals *you* whether you like it or not.
There have been instances of this that I personally don't believe in, such as the seedier portions of Japanese manga, because I don't think it's healthy for people to expose themselves to so much obscenity that it starts to seep into their moral consciousness. That is just my opinion, but from what I have observed in this world, it is generally true. I, personally, would like to see more games that realistically edify morality (or whatever you may call doing good in your particular worldview, assuming you believe good exists) and help this world be a better place. My bottom line is: is this game making the world a better place? If it is, then release it. If it's not, then perhaps keep it hidden.
That said, I do believe that the expression of art in itself is one of the most fundamental rights of humanity that needs to be exercised, as much as speech. I don't know if there's such a thing as "freedom to art", but I hope there is.
Sviel
2006
From what people are saying, it sounds like the issue is more with how the subject matter is treated than whether or not it is present. Sort of like how the Harry Potter series touched on a few things without ever getting campy or preachy and went over marvelously.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I mean, yeah, obviously. What matters is what you're saying about the issue. If you don't handle it in a controversial manner then obviously you're fine. Saying that rape is bad isn't particularly controversial. Saying that rape is cool is extremely controversial to the point that you'll probably be controverting against almost every single player.
Not sure "controverting" is actually a word. Whatever.
Games obviously have villains, and the villains do bad things up to and including planetary genocide. I can't think of many things more controversial than promoting planetary genocide. But he's the villain. The message the game is giving is that his actions are wrong. Of course you want the villain to do things that your audience will disagree with.
Not sure "controverting" is actually a word. Whatever.
Games obviously have villains, and the villains do bad things up to and including planetary genocide. I can't think of many things more controversial than promoting planetary genocide. But he's the villain. The message the game is giving is that his actions are wrong. Of course you want the villain to do things that your audience will disagree with.
New words get invented everyday, so go with it.
I think what it comes down to is context. A basic rule for what is acceptable is informed consent, you get it, it's roses, you don't it's off the table. That's not just for acts of sexual aggression, which is probably the one most people go to immediately when the term consent is used, but in all things. Murder is rarely something to which the victim consents, unless you are talking about Euthanasia, in which case murder becomes a relative, and indeed contextual term. Theft is also rarely agreed to, unless by allowing something you own to be taken a greater good is achieved, medical supplies from a surgery during a natural disaster for example (lets not get into the standard kleptomaniac response of almost all RPG characters). Two (or more) consenting adults choose to engage in a sexual act, irrespective of gender, all good, but one of them is in a long-term committed relationship and is therefore causing harm to an innocent and unsuspecting third party, so suddenly not good. The same can be applied to most situations.
What makes something controversial is when (in this case within an imagined world) the idea that consent is not required and that it is perfectly normal, actively condoned or at least socially acceptable to ignore that stricture.
The only way your can get around that immediate knee-jerk reaction from your possible players is to set such a situation within a known context. Slavery nowadays is abhorred, slavery in the Roman Empire was one of the foundations on which the Empire rested. You set a game in modern-day Chicago where one group of people is treated as second class citizens because their skin is darker, you're going to get a negative response, set it in Rome in 22BCE and you're golden.
It's all about context. Controversy for it's own sake should be avoided if possible as by and large it's generally just a case of attention-seeking. But controversial subjects can and should be raised, as long as they fit within the scope of the world and the story. So write that slavery in Chicago story, but just have your heroes trying to combat it otherwise it's just not going to garner a good reaction.
Give it a go, just don't expect universal approbation.
I think what it comes down to is context. A basic rule for what is acceptable is informed consent, you get it, it's roses, you don't it's off the table. That's not just for acts of sexual aggression, which is probably the one most people go to immediately when the term consent is used, but in all things. Murder is rarely something to which the victim consents, unless you are talking about Euthanasia, in which case murder becomes a relative, and indeed contextual term. Theft is also rarely agreed to, unless by allowing something you own to be taken a greater good is achieved, medical supplies from a surgery during a natural disaster for example (lets not get into the standard kleptomaniac response of almost all RPG characters). Two (or more) consenting adults choose to engage in a sexual act, irrespective of gender, all good, but one of them is in a long-term committed relationship and is therefore causing harm to an innocent and unsuspecting third party, so suddenly not good. The same can be applied to most situations.
What makes something controversial is when (in this case within an imagined world) the idea that consent is not required and that it is perfectly normal, actively condoned or at least socially acceptable to ignore that stricture.
The only way your can get around that immediate knee-jerk reaction from your possible players is to set such a situation within a known context. Slavery nowadays is abhorred, slavery in the Roman Empire was one of the foundations on which the Empire rested. You set a game in modern-day Chicago where one group of people is treated as second class citizens because their skin is darker, you're going to get a negative response, set it in Rome in 22BCE and you're golden.
It's all about context. Controversy for it's own sake should be avoided if possible as by and large it's generally just a case of attention-seeking. But controversial subjects can and should be raised, as long as they fit within the scope of the world and the story. So write that slavery in Chicago story, but just have your heroes trying to combat it otherwise it's just not going to garner a good reaction.
Give it a go, just don't expect universal approbation.
RyaReisender
200
I avoid controversal topics like the plague. I just don't like what wanna-be good-hearted people who like to put their "defensive hand" on minorities and then feel all great.
Only exception are controversal topics that are not generally accepted by the majority and hardly even discussed about because they make most people uncomfortable. From your list that would be incest.
Only exception are controversal topics that are not generally accepted by the majority and hardly even discussed about because they make most people uncomfortable. From your list that would be incest.
Does Fallen-Griever still hang around RMN? I feel like I need to remind him about his first release of Sore Losers and how it had a SPRITED SEX SCENE.
author=Little Wing Guy
Does Fallen-Griever still hang around RMN? I feel like I need to remind him about his first release of Sore Losers and how it had a SPRITED SEX SCENE.
Right way to do this: Show the bed covers shifting around
Wrong way: sprited penetration
General rule: if it ever makes you cringe in a negative way, it'll make your audience cringe. Redo it or drop it.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=PepsiOtakuauthor=Little Wing GuyRight way to do this: Show the bed covers shifting around
Does Fallen-Griever still hang around RMN? I feel like I need to remind him about his first release of Sore Losers and how it had a SPRITED SEX SCENE.
Wrong way: sprited penetration
General rule: if it ever makes you cringe in a negative way, it'll make your audience cringe. Redo it or drop it.
"nice dick nice dick nice dick nice dick"
I'm sorry to those who don't get that RM reference.
What's in my game? Hmm...
1. Fallibility of deities and religious zealotry
2. Bestiality
3. Dragon equivalent of the "virgin birth" (it may very well be blasphemy including it)
4. Mixed race families (technically)
5. Forced cannibalism (context is important)
I'm sure there's more, but that's just off the top. I really want to start making more NPCs, and perhaps a party member, that fall under the banner of LGBT+. Nothing explicit, but clearly something that speaks for itself such as two grown male NPCs living together and the sort, or a party member who shows an uncommon interest in the well-being of another of the same sex.
If it works for your game and you can pull it off tactfully and intelligently, I'd say go for it. Anything but rape; that's off the table.
Corfaisus, of all of those the only one that would give me pause, and would be considered controversial to me is 2. Bestiality, because quite simply an animal can't give informed consent, and therefore, for me, is off the table. Though in a fantasy setting if the beasts are sentient and capable of both understanding and communicating intent then that would remove my reservation. Other than that the rest would not cause me to turn away from your game or even view it in a negative light for the subjects raised. It would more than likely be confronting given the list, but that is not a reason to dismiss or ignore it, and indeed the idea of a dragon virgin birth is intriguing enough to warrant closer interest.
Isn't Sated F-G's username now?
author=Little Wing Guy
Does Fallen-Griever still hang around RMN? I feel like I need to remind him about his first release of Sore Losers and how it had a SPRITED SEX SCENE.
Isn't Sated F-G's username now?
nurvuss
958
how about an elder abuse simulator in the style of shining force 2, that'd be pretty controversial
author=nhubiauthor=Little Wing Guy
Does Fallen-Griever still hang around RMN? I feel like I need to remind him about his first release of Sore Losers and how it had a SPRITED SEX SCENE.
Isn't Sated F-G's username now?
Sated made Sore Losers, so I'd assume so.
Reading everyone's posts on here made me breathe a sigh of relief. I was kind of worried I'd come in here and everyone would be crying "But... But my art!" or "You just don't need to play it if you don't like it!!" :/
I love playing games with controversial topics. I definitely think there's a need for games with those topics. I love the debates and talks people in the fandom have with each other about them. But guys if you want to put them in, please please do some reading on the topic if you aren't familiar with it. Believe it or not, things like rape and abuse are more than just "super bad things".
When you actually understand that what you're putting your character through is heavier than just some one time event on a storyline, it'll be easier to treat the topic with respect. These things shouldn't be the cause to your effect. They shouldn't be the grand reveal at the end of a diary entry. They shouldn't be a villain character's backstory set up crime. Read real stories from real victims. Learn terms and facts. Build empathy for the issue you're tossing into your game before you shove it in like a shockingly horrific CG.
To be honest, this is something that really bothers me about a lot of rpgmaker horror games. I see a lot of little girl characters put through horrible experiences just so someone can comment on how dark the game is. I mean it wouldn't be bad if that's what makes your game dark. But if that's the only reason you put the issue in for, it really shows.
I say this as someone that uses controversial topics regularly in my series. But I only use things I've dealt with personally so I'm not just spouting off nonsense to "build a character". Man, even then I still worry if I'm not doing anything right.
Sorry if this all comes off as too preachy... But it just sucks that a lot of otherwise good games fall victim to ignorance. :[
I love playing games with controversial topics. I definitely think there's a need for games with those topics. I love the debates and talks people in the fandom have with each other about them. But guys if you want to put them in, please please do some reading on the topic if you aren't familiar with it. Believe it or not, things like rape and abuse are more than just "super bad things".
When you actually understand that what you're putting your character through is heavier than just some one time event on a storyline, it'll be easier to treat the topic with respect. These things shouldn't be the cause to your effect. They shouldn't be the grand reveal at the end of a diary entry. They shouldn't be a villain character's backstory set up crime. Read real stories from real victims. Learn terms and facts. Build empathy for the issue you're tossing into your game before you shove it in like a shockingly horrific CG.
To be honest, this is something that really bothers me about a lot of rpgmaker horror games. I see a lot of little girl characters put through horrible experiences just so someone can comment on how dark the game is. I mean it wouldn't be bad if that's what makes your game dark. But if that's the only reason you put the issue in for, it really shows.
I say this as someone that uses controversial topics regularly in my series. But I only use things I've dealt with personally so I'm not just spouting off nonsense to "build a character". Man, even then I still worry if I'm not doing anything right.
Sorry if this all comes off as too preachy... But it just sucks that a lot of otherwise good games fall victim to ignorance. :[
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Absolutely. To write about some of the "trigger" things, you'll definitely want to know how to approach it without going "rape! BLEH!" In my game, I needed to replicate a PTSD episode by having the character have vivid, rapid flashbacks to the prologue accompanied with a sharp 'ting' noise between frames and while this whole thing is going on, he crumbles slightly. After it passes, his friend asks him if he's okay, and he dismissively says "I'm fine" (though it's clear to him and the audience that he's not). I feel like I should go back through and making it more of a violent crippling to try and do the severity of real life cases some justice.
For other moments, if you can't speak to someone about what their life is like after something like this (you'd probably be better off not asking, for their sake), at the very least you can reach back into your most horrifying and traumatic nightmares and make it a reality by replicating that feeling of dread and loss of control when writing. The rest is empathy and personal experience. It's like when I was writing the main "hero" of 2014's Tales from Zilmurik: Origin demo, I took my history of coping with my good-for-nothing aunt's mental illness, wasteful spending of our own money (we gave her a monthly budget which she was to use for gas, food, and her education. she goes off and buys smokes and a potted plant for her girlfriend's house, doesn't tell us about it and has the audacity to beg for more) and verbal abuse (this practically drove me out of the house for an entire summer shortly after my parents had divorced (I needed to get out of there; she was too much)) and expanded on what could have been had she physically abused me to breathe life into his misogyny and skewed social views.
For other moments, if you can't speak to someone about what their life is like after something like this (you'd probably be better off not asking, for their sake), at the very least you can reach back into your most horrifying and traumatic nightmares and make it a reality by replicating that feeling of dread and loss of control when writing. The rest is empathy and personal experience. It's like when I was writing the main "hero" of 2014's Tales from Zilmurik: Origin demo, I took my history of coping with my good-for-nothing aunt's mental illness, wasteful spending of our own money (we gave her a monthly budget which she was to use for gas, food, and her education. she goes off and buys smokes and a potted plant for her girlfriend's house, doesn't tell us about it and has the audacity to beg for more) and verbal abuse (this practically drove me out of the house for an entire summer shortly after my parents had divorced (I needed to get out of there; she was too much)) and expanded on what could have been had she physically abused me to breathe life into his misogyny and skewed social views.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
On the other hand, just to play the devil's advocate, everything is someone's "trigger." Are you going to be careful about how delicately you handle ice magic because the player may have been trapped in a blizzard for three days or had a friend who was frozen to death? Or show a gripping cut scene with a realistic representation of the effects of the player getting inflicted with the blind status? Probably not. Sometimes it's okay for things to just be plot devices or gameplay constructs.
Of course, stepping back and not being the devil's advocate, it should hopefully be clear that rape, incest, and other very common, very traumatic issues are not among those things. There's a point beyond which the onus to avoid offense is on the player instead of the developer, otherwise it would be impossible to tell any story, but there's a point where it's too far. If you can imagine even people with no personal investment in the issue hating you, that's a good sign to go back and rewrite it. If your hero is holding stillborn fetuses by the umbilical cords and swinging them around like nunchucks, you're probably an asshole.
Of course, stepping back and not being the devil's advocate, it should hopefully be clear that rape, incest, and other very common, very traumatic issues are not among those things. There's a point beyond which the onus to avoid offense is on the player instead of the developer, otherwise it would be impossible to tell any story, but there's a point where it's too far. If you can imagine even people with no personal investment in the issue hating you, that's a good sign to go back and rewrite it. If your hero is holding stillborn fetuses by the umbilical cords and swinging them around like nunchucks, you're probably an asshole.
Housekeeping
3571
As long as you're capturing something about life, there's nothing wrong about showing it on the screen, even bestiality--I mean, in some rural areas, donkey fucking is more or less socially acceptable, even if it's hush-hush. I mean, I don't really want to think about how this would translate to a game, but I could easily see a story about a man who fucks donkeys while dealing with abject poverty and loneliness, or someone in a rural area who is meek and submissive around domineering family/friends could gain a sense of power over an animal. It doesn't mean that what he's doing is right, and the audience will see this, but it could still be a compelling read/watch/play because the character connects with things we've all felt--isolation, loneliness, frustration, powerlessness--and we'd understand his actions even if we don't condone them.
I don't want anyone to make a game about fucking donkeys, let's just get that out of the way.
Anyway, this is just to say that controversial topics are fine as long as you handle them artfully. I imagine that showing sprite sex could even be done well, though, after playing Sore Losers, I can imagine how that would have come off as crass (if you're reading this, Sated, I thought your game was pretty awesome, though). I mean, you can always avoid nudity in film, but sometimes including nudity is just the right decision. I know that sprite sex would look silly most of the time, but with the right context and artist, I wouldn't take it off the table.
I don't want anyone to make a game about fucking donkeys, let's just get that out of the way.
Anyway, this is just to say that controversial topics are fine as long as you handle them artfully. I imagine that showing sprite sex could even be done well, though, after playing Sore Losers, I can imagine how that would have come off as crass (if you're reading this, Sated, I thought your game was pretty awesome, though). I mean, you can always avoid nudity in film, but sometimes including nudity is just the right decision. I know that sprite sex would look silly most of the time, but with the right context and artist, I wouldn't take it off the table.
