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SOOO... GAMERGATE

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pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32388
Being a man, and being one from a very traditional family, I can't help but feel that "toxic masculinity" is accurate in the case of GamerGate. There are toxic, negative ideas about masculinity. It's healthy to understand your gender. My wife always had difficulty identifying the type of man I am. My appearance and the way I carry myself is as manly as any typical beer guzzling, football watching, couch-potato. I don't shave daily and my beard destroy's modern multi-blade razors (even the newest Gilette five blade monstrosity is too dull for me after a mere two shaves). So I shave with a straight-razor.

The moment I speak, the illusion is broken. I have a very effeminate (feminine) manner. My speech, my interests (as society would define), my overall behavior tends to be very feminine. When I write, again, I present a very different image when I write. I tend to be very correct and am quick to correct mistakes when I notice them. I write everything as though I was preparing an academic study, and not just goofing off online. This is also an illusion. I am not even remotely a confident speaker. How I write is worlds different from how I communicate in person. I am quiet, silent, unwilling to express an opinion, often allowing others to talk over me.

I come from a family where the men rule and the women are meant to be in the kitchen. Owning shoes was at one time a privilege for a woman in my family. When my great-aunt was 18, she asked her father if she could get a job. He told her, yes. She went to the Army and said she wanted a job, but that she didn't want to enlist. They told her they have jobs for anyone who wants them and she got a job working for the army. My great-grandfather told her that she wasn't supposed to get a job with the Army but in the dime-store, where she belonged.

He took her straight to the base she got her job with, walked right into the general's office (he was high enough in rank that he had all the clearance he needed to walk in without an appointment, even retired.). It did no good. He had to endure the fact that woman in his family was working for the Army...doing a man's job, and she advanced. She ultimately reported directly to the President of the United States.

This is a very old attitude. In Europe in the 1500s, she'd have been burned at the stake for this. 2000 years ago, she'd have been stoned. She laughs today. She began her employment in 1955, and the first general she worked for was a woman. A large portion of men in the world have a strong sense of entitlement and superiority to women. It is their duty to beat their wives because the Bible says so, and lament that it is illegal. Many do anyway. When they are caught, many are tried by like minded men who chose to put the blame on the woman. This is "toxic masculinity" and it drives society. Not toxic ideas about masculinity. The man is in charge. Where women were in charge, they ultimate did a much better job than men: Athens, the Island of Crete, Ancient Egypt (this society had a patriarch, but he answered to the priesthood, which while employing the genders in equal measure, was matriarchal). These societies fell when outsiders invaded and took over.

It is this mentality that is at the heart of GamerGate. Ethics in journalism, ethics in advertising: these are just excuses, vehicles for their hatred.
author=EdgeOfChaos
I'm fairly sure the accused reviewer never posted a review anyways. That's hardly the *only* thing they're mad about, but that issue seems bogus. It is interesting how easily this whole thing was set off though. I'm assuming they view this as the straw that broke the camel's back.

The feminists who receive attention are in the spotlight because they have put themselves there by giving speeches, speaking out, etc.. then people started sending them threats, which put them in the spotlight even more.


No, the review didn't happen which is why I said it resulted in basically nothing. A journalist should still know better than to get cozy with his subject matter, because it can easily result lead to a conflict of interest without him/her even noticing, or at the very least a percieved conflict which is still very damaging... But who am I kidding? Gaming media has almost no actual journalists, journalism education, and a disturbing number of them got their jobs just for writing pithy amateur reviews on messageboards and personal blogs, backed by the weight of a lofty high school diploma at best. They just want to be involved in the industry and "journalism" has a marginal barrier of entry so they take that route.

Also, the Twitter harassment campaign began before Sarkeesian stepped into the picture, she just rightfully identified that Quinn was being pestered for a deceptive, bullshit reason.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32388
Writers write, and if you want to be successful you have to write. You don't have to do it well, but you have to do it a lot to be noticed, and all a media company cares about is selling it's product. They don't give a shit about quality.
author=Nightowl
seriously though video game journalism has been a joke for several years now... don't need no kotaku if you got totalbiscuit

Haha! This is probably the only sensible thing that Nightowl has ever and will ever say. xD

But yeah, if you haven't already, go check this video by TotalBiscuit -Link- ...Some of you may be a bit put off after the phrase: "However, it's also a giant distraction." But by all things good and holy, keep listening; He touches nearly every subject that there is to touch, and he does it in very reasonable and sympathetic way. And personally, I agree fully with his conclusions.

At the very least, his opinions are somewhat refreshing. It's nice to see someone actually focusing on the subjects that are worth discussing, among a sea of people that urge you to abandon discussion altogether; who chastise you for doing as little as, Gasp! "considering both sides". As if conditioning your own objectivity and labeling other people's involvement as "detrimental" or whatever, was the most productive thing to do... I mean, if you want to do that, that's cool. But others are free to choose on their own.

It's like I said in the other thread. At this rate we will never get anything done, because the KKK will always crash your party.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=pianotm
Being a man, and being one from a very traditional family, I can't help but feel that "toxic masculinity" is accurate in the case of GamerGate. There are toxic, negative ideas about masculinity. It's healthy to understand your gender. My wife always had difficulty identifying the type of man I am. My appearance and the way I carry myself is as manly as any typical beer guzzling, football watching, couch-potato. I don't shave daily and my beard destroy's modern multi-blade razors (even the newest Gilette five blade monstrosity is too dull for me after a mere two shaves). So I shave with a straight-razor.

The moment I speak, the illusion is broken. I have a very effeminate (feminine) manner. My speech, my interests (as society would define), my overall behavior tends to be very feminine. When I write, again, I present a very different image when I write. I tend to be very correct and am quick to correct mistakes when I notice them. I write everything as though I was preparing an academic study, and not just goofing off online. This is also an illusion. I am not even remotely a confident speaker. How I write is worlds different from how I communicate in person. I am quiet, silent, unwilling to express an opinion, often allowing others to talk over me.

I come from a family where the men rule and the women are meant to be in the kitchen. Owning shoes was at one time a privilege for a woman in my family. When my great-aunt was 18, she asked her father if she could get a job. He told her, yes. She went to the Army and said she wanted a job, but that she didn't want to enlist. They told her they have jobs for anyone who wants them and she got a job working for the army. My great-grandfather told her that she wasn't supposed to get a job with the Army but in the dime-store, where she belonged.

He took her straight to the base she got her job with, walked right into the general's office (he was high enough in rank that he had all the clearance he needed to walk in without an appointment, even retired.). It did no good. He had to endure the fact that woman in his family was working for the Army...doing a man's job, and she advanced. She ultimately reported directly to the President of the United States.

This is a very old attitude. In Europe in the 1500s, she'd have been burned at the stake for this. 2000 years ago, she'd have been stoned. She laughs today. She began her employment in 1955, and the first general she worked for was a woman. A large portion of men in the world have a strong sense of entitlement and superiority to women. It is their duty to beat their wives because the Bible says so, and lament that it is illegal. Many do anyway. When they are caught, many are tried by like minded men who chose to put the blame on the woman. This is "toxic masculinity" and it drives society. Not toxic ideas about masculinity. The man is in charge. Where women were in charge, they ultimate did a much better job than men: Athens, the Island of Crete, Ancient Egypt (this society had a patriarch, but he answered to the priesthood, which while employing the genders in equal measure, was matriarchal). These societies fell when outsiders invaded and took over.

It is this mentality that is at the heart of GamerGate. Ethics in journalism, ethics in advertising: these are just excuses, vehicles for their hatred.


These kinds of posts are why I love you. I really feel like we're on the same wavelength on these matters and it gives me hope that I was raised right and that I might live to be a positive and progressive influence in society.
author=Jude
author=EdgeOfChaos
Also, the Twitter harassment campaign began before Sarkeesian stepped into the picture, she just rightfully identified that Quinn was being pestered for a deceptive, bullshit reason.
Its been going on a bit before that really. Most of the people going after Quinn were pestering Sarkeesian already, they just named both camapaigns "Gamergate".
Honestly, masculinity as it currently stands is toxic. The whole idea of being masculine being good and feminine being bad is fucking toxic as hell and it is prevalent in our society.

Boys are taught not to cry because it's something only little girls do.
Girls are taught that boys will be boys when they hurt them in the playground - that it's okay for a boy to hurt you - and those lessons are repeated over and over until you're in a loveless, abusive marriage and wonder how things got like that.
1 in 5 women in Australia have been or are in an abusive relationship.

Men use terms for women as insults and laugh about it. When called out for being gendered insults they point out that they use the insults on men and women so it's not gendered at all... as though that was the issue in the first place. Cunt, bitch, slut, pussy, whore... the worst insults are feminine in gender. What's a male gendered insult? Dick? Prick? Cock? Dickhead? Those are used as friendly pokes among friends. I can call my brother a dick in front of my very upright and strict mother and she won't bat an eyelid but dare to call him a bitch and I get the "Don't swear!" line. Because it's worse to be a woman than a man.

Don't act like a pussy - get the pussy. When women are only referred to by their genitalia... wow, just wow. As though all they are is walking sex. And society laughs it off because 'it's just a joke'.

Men cat-call women and consider it a compliment. Get angry when the woman ignores - can't handle a fucking compliment you stupid whore! - or laugh it off when she tells them to piss off - look at the bitch acting tough. Some of the things I've heard men say when walking down the street is just mind-boggling - and it's not seen as a bad thing because "It's what men do."

Going into a game store and being forced to answer asinine questions about a game I want to buy just because I happen to be a women. Being dismissed as either 'fake' or 'getting something for one of the men in her life' because I don't pick the games they expect me to pick. Being asked if I need help finding the Barbie section when browsing. Getting weird looks in comic stores because I grab a number of 'mens' comics instead of the two or three titles they keep for girls who may wander in, then having to prove I know the universe I'm reading about before they'll let me buy.

Having someone dismiss my knowledge because a girl doesn't know about men's subjects and people nod and ignore because what would a girl know about cars or fixing a sink or rewiring something? Only men know shit like that after all!

And god forbid you don't look a certain way. Wearing make-up? Must be down to fuck. Not wearing make-up? Lazy bitch can't even dress herself. Short dress? Whore. Long skirt? Prude. Dressed up to go out to dinner with a friend? Some guy must be getting lucky tonight!

Little girls are taught that wanting to be sexy and pretty are what they should aim for in life. Little boys are taught that they can do anything they want when they grow up! Be a firefighter? Sure! Want to become an astronaught or the president? Definitely! But if a girl wants something like that she is told "wouldn't you rather be a princess or a mother instead?"

You just have to look at the selections for kids halloween costumes to see the difference. Girls only get fairies, princesses, ballerinas and the like. Boys get ninja turtles, super heroes, cool jobs and the like. When I was in grade 5 at primary school we had a dress up day. I wanted to go as Don Juan de Marco (I'd seen that movie pretty recently by accident. It had Johnny Depp in it~) but a girl wanting to be a casanova?! Definitely not. I paid $2 and got to go without a costume instead. One of the girls in my class had come as Indiana Jones. Everyone, even the teachers, said things like "BUT HE'S A BOY!" and "Fancy forcing her to dress up in such a thing! She's a little girl for heavens' sake!" but I envied the hell out of her and when I told her that she was so happy because everyone else had only bad things to say about her being in the role of a man - she'd stepped out of the boundaries society had placed her in and people discouraged it. A girl must only be a girl and like girl things which are BAD, after all.

Women are plastered over ever advert ever, selling with sex for things like toilet cleaners and fish tanks. Men are almost never shown sexed up - the male version of sexed-up is either them wearing a suit or underwear in an underwear ad. The very few adverts outside of this are a drop in the ocean when compared to the sheer amount of imagery of sexed-up women.

There's so much more but I've honestly ranted enough and won't stop if I keep going. Even just things I've personally experienced could fill pages.

And of course this is generalisation but the fact I have to put that line in is pathetic - because when talking about women it's never generalised. All women are bitches, whores, sluts, crazy, ugly, never ever good enough and deserve what they get. And if a woman says "Oh, but you're making a generalisation!" she gets thrown into that group of names as one of them.

And people take offence when someone says that the societal norm that allows all of this isn't toxic?
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32388
author=Liberty
Honestly, masculinity as it currently stands is toxic. The whole idea of being masculine being good and feminine being bad is fucking toxic as hell and it is prevalent in our society.


It's what our society is built on. Even Christianity! Did you know the original Trinity was the Father (Lord), the Mother (Mother Mary, or in some sects, Mary Magdalene), and the Son (Christ, He Who Anoints). Religion has always had a feminine aspect. It was the second Nicene Council that changed it to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and taking the time to define the woman as evil and labeling femininity as the left-hand path. Almost everything the MEN in power have done has been designed to retain power and to oppress women.

author=name
Boys are taught not to cry because it's something only little girls do.


This one burns me up too, and it's the way I was raised. My mother always tried to tell me it was okay to cry, only to be shouted down by my father. Is it any wonder my father and I are always at each other's throats?

author=name
Girls are taught that boys will be boys when they hurt them in the playground - that it's okay for a boy to hurt you - and those lessons are repeated over and over until you're in a loveless, abusive marriage and wonder how things got like that.
1 in 5 women in Australia have been or are in an abusive relationship.


My wife got out of an abusive relationship before she met me. She was legally declared fit and sane. The father confessed under oath that he regularly sexually molested his son, committed tax fraud, and was a drug abuser. The court (Chicago and a fucking female judge!) determined that her unwillingness to leave her son alone with her husband was more detrimental to the child's welfare, gave the father custody and denied her visitation, claiming she would take the child. The father didn't tell his son that he had won custody and that he wasn't allowed to see his mother. NO, "Court's a bad word in our house." He told his son that his mother didn't want him and gave him to his father. Whenever she would talk to him on the phone, he would ask her why she was punishing him. He's autistic. Eventually, he told his mother that he hoped she died and would never speak to her again. She tried for a year to get back in touch with him. I never could cheer her up. I really believe this is what killed her. I really believe she'd still be alive if it hadn't been for that.

author=name
Don't act like a pussy - get the pussy. When women are only referred to by their genitalia... wow, just wow. As though all they are is walking sex. And society laughs it off because 'it's just a joke'.


Anything goes. This is something that always bothered me. I mean, how is anyone SUPPOSED to feel about having their gender used this way?

author=name
Little girls are taught that wanting to be sexy and pretty are what they should aim for in life. Little boys are taught that they can do anything they want when they grow up! Be a firefighter? Sure! Want to become an astronaught or the president? Definitely! But if a girl wants something like that she is told "wouldn't you rather be a princess or a mother instead?"


And here's another one that pisses me the fuck off. What? He didn't grow up to be an astronaut so girls have to dream of being barefoot and pregnant? Just fucking servants? There was a scientist back in the 13th century, don't remember who, but he believed that a woman's only function was to procreate, that she had no intelligence, that her body was basically a container for a uterus, and it would float around and cause "hysteria"...and this was accepted science!

author=name
And people take offence when someone says that the societal norm that allows all of this isn't toxic?


Oh, but if everyone just accepts this bullshit and realize that it's OUR IDEAS of this shit that are the problem and not the rampant chauvinism that has consumed society, THAT'S progress!

Really fucking brilliant!
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32388
Double post. :/
author=Liberty
stuff


I don't think most men can relate to or accurately understand the amount of negative attention and ideas many women receive on a daily basis since early childhood.

"We need a license to go fishing yet any moron has the right to raise a child" said a comedian who denounced the phenomenon.

This is one tough, long battle but I believe that every generation gets slightly better. Many women already do their part. Now I think that more decent men should do theirs, by standing up to their stupid buddies and discourage such behavior when it happens, and show more support to the women around them.
Society is but a group of individuals. If more individuals do the right things and teach the right lessons, the situation will change.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32388
I'm sorry, now I'm fucking miserable now. I'm going to write something or maybe mess around with VX Ace.
@Avee I'm sure plenty of men can't relate but saying we can't accurately understand isn't something I really agree with. It actually feels like a bit of a slap in the face for trying to understand.

I absolutely agree with the rest of your post though.
Maybe these will help cheer you up!





(big)
TehGuy
Resident Nonexistence
1827
author=pianotm
I'm sorry, now I'm fucking miserable now.


Aye, this was one of the reasons I really hoped the conversation would never hit here: many people don't leave on good terms after it's been had or they've had their say.

Frankly, I'm still kinda worried that it could cause a rift in the community here if it got bad enough (2+ months of keeping track of this shit.. I've seen a lot of places head south real fast at the mere mention)

author=Avee
Now I think that more decent men should do theirs, by standing up to their stupid buddies and discourage such behavior when it happens, and show more support to the women around them.


I'm almost hoping that generation comes soon, but I feel as if it'll still be a while before all the truly spiteful men finally die off and those #killallmen and "THIS POST GAVE ME PTSD" types disappear and then perhaps society can advance

TBH, I kinda think it's that latter group that keeps a good bit of the issues around today.. As soon as someone utters "feminism" all I get are images and memories of what you could consider the crazies.

AT THE SAME TIME, however, I really hope it doesn't progress to a point where men can't say shit about women without it being labeled as "misogyny" and shit and there's a whole "women can do no wrong" kind of mentality that most of the clickbait sites tend to employ
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3229
author=Liberty
Little boys are taught that they can do anything they want when they grow up! Be a firefighter? Sure! Want to become an astronaught or the president? Definitely!
This must be a white person thing because all my parents ever wanted me to be was a doctor LOL
author=Liberty
Don't act like a pussy - get the pussy. When women are only referred to by their genitalia... wow, just wow. As though all they are is walking sex. And society laughs it off because 'it's just a joke'.

Yeah, who would refer to someone by their genitalia? What a dick.
^And that just proves a million points. :/

Cunt, bitch, slut, pussy, whore... the worst insults are feminine in gender. What's a male gendered insult? Dick? Prick? Cock? Dickhead? Those are used as friendly pokes among friends. I can call my brother a dick in front of my very upright and strict mother and she won't bat an eyelid but dare to call him a bitch and I get the "Don't swear!" line. Because it's worse to be a woman than a man.
author=TehGuy
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/worst-thread-ever-general-gaming-sjw-dumping-ground-currently-airing-gamergate.90469/page-367#post-3542787Long read from 2 weeks ago, still worth it IMO.
I tried, but quit after my eyes rolled so far back I could see the back of my skull. He makes some pretty broad assumptions here for the basis of whatever point he is trying to make and I can only imagine that the conclusion he draws will be flawed. So I didn't bother past the 5th paragraph.