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SOOO... GAMERGATE
Posts
Nivlacart
1571
Nivlacart
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CloseI've been wanting to ask about and discuss GamerGate a bit because I still don't really get what it's all about despite all the reading I've done. They all seem to contradict each other.
(I understand this may be a touchy subject because when I asked about it on the RPGMaker forums they closed the topic almost instantly but uh, I do want to know more about it, so I hope this doesn't turn into an argument throwing foodfight)
From what I've read, do correct me if I'm wrong.
This is what they originally standed for:
------------------------
Gamergaters are people fighting for ethics in gaming journalism. They think there is too much room for biased opinions and bribery in it, and they want an established code of ethics so as to make sure that there is a proper level of respect and appreciation for games.
Anti-Gamergaters are against it because they do acknowledge that gaming journalism has always been this hard-to-regulate subject, but that's because journalists, reviewers and critics are people with their own opinions, and should be allowed to review and critique a game as they'd like.
------------------------
But then a video about Women VS Tropes in Video Games happened, and then some people supporting GamerGaters began to flame the hell out of female journalists and the like, and putting their personal information on the internet and everything. And then it turned to something like:
------------------------
Anti-Gamergaters are people fighting against Gamergaters because Gamergaters are a bunch of misogynist losers who are clinging onto old ways of gaming where there are musclely powerful men and shallow female sex object characters and that games are a privilege for men and women should take their opinions and stay out of gaming.
Gamergaters are fighting for Egalitarianism because Anti-Gamergaters are full of radical feminists who seem to be trying to push female superiority in gaming. What Gamergaters want to achieve is equal rights for both sides, as well as fairness in gaming journalism, but it's hard to achieve when radical feminists are pushing their agenda onto everybody.
------------------------
So... I got boggled because I'm trying to get in on this debate, hoping to understand and maybe at one point I'd pick a side to stand on... but... It's hard to tell what they're really fighting for? At this point they seem to be only seeing the harmful members of each other's parties and thinking that's what they're fighting for, and trying to stop each other from doing that. They attacks are unfortunate, but I'm trying to see them as a separate issue from the cause they were initially fighting for to begin with.
I'm sure probably somewhere in there I'm wrong about something, that's why I was hoping for a little clarification.
At first I blindly thought to support the Anti-Gamergate side after hearing about all the death threats female game journalists got, but once I read about the cause GamerGate was initially for, I got conflicted. True, people have their own opinions of games, but I've seen review sites that advertise and push certain games because they were paid to do so (thanks to certain people trying to get in on the game business just for the money. Darn businessmen). MMOHut used to be one of my favourite review sites until I realized it just became a business outlet.
What is GamerGate? Is supporting it a good or a bad thing? Is it important to know about?
(I understand this may be a touchy subject because when I asked about it on the RPGMaker forums they closed the topic almost instantly but uh, I do want to know more about it, so I hope this doesn't turn into an argument throwing foodfight)
From what I've read, do correct me if I'm wrong.
This is what they originally standed for:
------------------------
Gamergaters are people fighting for ethics in gaming journalism. They think there is too much room for biased opinions and bribery in it, and they want an established code of ethics so as to make sure that there is a proper level of respect and appreciation for games.
Anti-Gamergaters are against it because they do acknowledge that gaming journalism has always been this hard-to-regulate subject, but that's because journalists, reviewers and critics are people with their own opinions, and should be allowed to review and critique a game as they'd like.
------------------------
But then a video about Women VS Tropes in Video Games happened, and then some people supporting GamerGaters began to flame the hell out of female journalists and the like, and putting their personal information on the internet and everything. And then it turned to something like:
------------------------
Anti-Gamergaters are people fighting against Gamergaters because Gamergaters are a bunch of misogynist losers who are clinging onto old ways of gaming where there are musclely powerful men and shallow female sex object characters and that games are a privilege for men and women should take their opinions and stay out of gaming.
Gamergaters are fighting for Egalitarianism because Anti-Gamergaters are full of radical feminists who seem to be trying to push female superiority in gaming. What Gamergaters want to achieve is equal rights for both sides, as well as fairness in gaming journalism, but it's hard to achieve when radical feminists are pushing their agenda onto everybody.
------------------------
So... I got boggled because I'm trying to get in on this debate, hoping to understand and maybe at one point I'd pick a side to stand on... but... It's hard to tell what they're really fighting for? At this point they seem to be only seeing the harmful members of each other's parties and thinking that's what they're fighting for, and trying to stop each other from doing that. They attacks are unfortunate, but I'm trying to see them as a separate issue from the cause they were initially fighting for to begin with.
I'm sure probably somewhere in there I'm wrong about something, that's why I was hoping for a little clarification.
At first I blindly thought to support the Anti-Gamergate side after hearing about all the death threats female game journalists got, but once I read about the cause GamerGate was initially for, I got conflicted. True, people have their own opinions of games, but I've seen review sites that advertise and push certain games because they were paid to do so (thanks to certain people trying to get in on the game business just for the money. Darn businessmen). MMOHut used to be one of my favourite review sites until I realized it just became a business outlet.
What is GamerGate? Is supporting it a good or a bad thing? Is it important to know about?
kentona linked a badass article on the subject that I feel explains the group pretty well.
I can't help but feel that a lot of the division people have concerning gg is in the same vein as when Death Note was popular. There was a split between those who liked Light Yagami because he rationalized his murders pretty well under the idealistic guise of creating a better world for all; and those who recognized that no, he was an evil prick making excuses for killing folks he didn't like.
author=kentona
#StopGamerGate2014
E:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/16/of-gamers-gates-and-disco-demolition-the-roots-of-reactionary-rage.html
I can't help but feel that a lot of the division people have concerning gg is in the same vein as when Death Note was popular. There was a split between those who liked Light Yagami because he rationalized his murders pretty well under the idealistic guise of creating a better world for all; and those who recognized that no, he was an evil prick making excuses for killing folks he didn't like.
GameGate initially began because of a man who used the Ethics of game journalism to attack his ex-girlfriend for sleeping with a journalist. He said she did so in order to get her game a higher rating and called in his friends to harrass and demean her - but this was shown to be a lie as the journalist in question never even reviewed her game and there was never a review of her game on the site the journalist works for.
People were drawn in on the ex's side by the idea of ethics in game journalism but the problem was that everyone who spoke against the tactics that the ex used - slut shaming, sharing the woman's private information which led to people threatening to rape and kill her and deliberately attacking her and those who supported her - were attacked online by the people who supported the ex. In fact, most women developers who have even said anything about GamerGate have been threatened with all those things and had their private information shared.
Now I'm not saying there aren't people on both sides at fault. There are definitely people on the non-gamergate side of things who are saying horrible things about GG, however when one side threatens to kill and rape any woman who speaks out about this bullshit... well, that's taking it too far. Especially when others deliberately give out their personal information with the express purpose to deliberately enable such attacks outside of the internet.
Add to that that the men who shout against GG are hardly targeted at all while mainly the women are and it is a deliberate attack against women, no matter what anyone on either side of it says. That is fact.
Honestly, we do need some ethics in game media but we don't need gamergate. We need a different, all-gamer-inclusive movement and GG cannot be it because of how it started - not for the people but for one asshole's desire to get back at his ex because he was jealous.
We discussed it in a status not too long ago. Let me grab the link for you.
People were drawn in on the ex's side by the idea of ethics in game journalism but the problem was that everyone who spoke against the tactics that the ex used - slut shaming, sharing the woman's private information which led to people threatening to rape and kill her and deliberately attacking her and those who supported her - were attacked online by the people who supported the ex. In fact, most women developers who have even said anything about GamerGate have been threatened with all those things and had their private information shared.
Now I'm not saying there aren't people on both sides at fault. There are definitely people on the non-gamergate side of things who are saying horrible things about GG, however when one side threatens to kill and rape any woman who speaks out about this bullshit... well, that's taking it too far. Especially when others deliberately give out their personal information with the express purpose to deliberately enable such attacks outside of the internet.
Add to that that the men who shout against GG are hardly targeted at all while mainly the women are and it is a deliberate attack against women, no matter what anyone on either side of it says. That is fact.
Honestly, we do need some ethics in game media but we don't need gamergate. We need a different, all-gamer-inclusive movement and GG cannot be it because of how it started - not for the people but for one asshole's desire to get back at his ex because he was jealous.
We discussed it in a status not too long ago. Let me grab the link for you.
Do we really need to have this topic? I thought we already sorted out how the community felt in the status Liberty just linked?
You nailed it on the head when you said they don't know what they're fighting for anymore. They're just progressively ruining a bunch of social networks, with one side threatening to fucking kill people and the other trying to blame everything wrong with the world on men. Over fucking videogames. As far as I'm concerned they're all shitheads who don't even care to rationally discuss the subject. They just want to scream bloody murder at each other until an actual murder happens and destroys the goddamn industry.
I am fucking sick to death of hearing people talk about this crap. Yes, review sites are biased, shitty, cesspools. Gaming media sucks, it always fucking has and why this surprises anyone is beyond me. Nobody is fighting for the betterment of that, and if they are then it's obvious no one gives a shit. "Fair media" is a term man babies and chauvinist pigs use as an excuse to be violent towards women and spew vomit all over the web, referencing a "biased review" that didn't even happen and blaming a random indie dev over the fact that her stupid game won an award and Stanley Parable/insert title here didn't.
The fact that people are comparing gaming or being a gamer to an "exclusive mens club" is sickening. It never has been. I never once in my life tried to exclude women from gaming culture, or playing games with me, and neither has anyone that I know. It's a fucking cheap shot, because the popular image of a gamer is a fat virgin guy in a basement. Even though that's hardly what a gamer is.
Apparently nobody wants to just express fair views on gender or sexual equality through... making games? It's pathetic. Everyone just wants to shill ideas all over the place and act like a knight in shining armour instead of doing anything for the betterment of the fucking culture.
You nailed it on the head when you said they don't know what they're fighting for anymore. They're just progressively ruining a bunch of social networks, with one side threatening to fucking kill people and the other trying to blame everything wrong with the world on men. Over fucking videogames. As far as I'm concerned they're all shitheads who don't even care to rationally discuss the subject. They just want to scream bloody murder at each other until an actual murder happens and destroys the goddamn industry.
I am fucking sick to death of hearing people talk about this crap. Yes, review sites are biased, shitty, cesspools. Gaming media sucks, it always fucking has and why this surprises anyone is beyond me. Nobody is fighting for the betterment of that, and if they are then it's obvious no one gives a shit. "Fair media" is a term man babies and chauvinist pigs use as an excuse to be violent towards women and spew vomit all over the web, referencing a "biased review" that didn't even happen and blaming a random indie dev over the fact that her stupid game won an award and Stanley Parable/insert title here didn't.
The fact that people are comparing gaming or being a gamer to an "exclusive mens club" is sickening. It never has been. I never once in my life tried to exclude women from gaming culture, or playing games with me, and neither has anyone that I know. It's a fucking cheap shot, because the popular image of a gamer is a fat virgin guy in a basement. Even though that's hardly what a gamer is.
Apparently nobody wants to just express fair views on gender or sexual equality through... making games? It's pathetic. Everyone just wants to shill ideas all over the place and act like a knight in shining armour instead of doing anything for the betterment of the fucking culture.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
This didn't end already? I didn't know there was anyone left who approved of either side of this clusterfuck.
Nivlacart
1571
Whoops, sorry about that Liberty. I didn't know Statuses were their own thread thing ^^;
author=LockeZ
This didn't end already? I didn't know there was anyone left who approved of either side of this clusterfuck.
This? End? It's never going to end until the people causing the real problems are given their due punishment and all these disgusting syncophants quit bathing in their vitriol, facade of that they give a shit, and repulsive biases.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
I think it's pretty telling when one of the #gamergate people might link you to this when hammering home the point of "problem? what problem?"
You heard it here first, folks; feminism = Sharia law in the hands of extremists.
Frankly, they can argue all they want, but the fact that #gamergate didn't become a thing until after this whole Zoe Quinn debacle - despite the obvious fact that there's been "corruption in journalism" for decades - and that they clearly can't get their shit together (so they couldn't have had it together before) just goes to show that, regardless of "morals" concerning someone's sex life, they rally under the belief that the video game industry didn't become a problem until a woman showed up.
Death and rape threats strewn about towards those who only want what's best for society to progress in a non-chauvinistic way, who's really to blame here? Hmm? Their view is so skewed it's impossible to mistake; #gamergate IS misogyny.
you fight Christians over censorship and the winners stroll in and impose their censorship all in the name of tolerance. I just saw SJW's telling people in gamergate that they will be looked back upon in 30 years the same way as people who supported minstrel shows. lol. according to them censorship is ok if their side is doing it. I urge everyone to watch the first 3:45 of this video and tell me this isn't whats happening in the name of "social progess" look how they control art and women. https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-part-3
You heard it here first, folks; feminism = Sharia law in the hands of extremists.
Frankly, they can argue all they want, but the fact that #gamergate didn't become a thing until after this whole Zoe Quinn debacle - despite the obvious fact that there's been "corruption in journalism" for decades - and that they clearly can't get their shit together (so they couldn't have had it together before) just goes to show that, regardless of "morals" concerning someone's sex life, they rally under the belief that the video game industry didn't become a problem until a woman showed up.
Death and rape threats strewn about towards those who only want what's best for society to progress in a non-chauvinistic way, who's really to blame here? Hmm? Their view is so skewed it's impossible to mistake; #gamergate IS misogyny.
author=Liberty
So... all in favour of starting up Ethica - an all-gamer-inclusive focus on ethics in gaming?
You're sure we won't be opening a can of fruit?
People will definitely be wary of it. It sounds like something like GG with more pure intentions would have a tough time now which is sad.
author=Liberty
So... all in favour of starting up Ethica - an all-gamer-inclusive focus on ethics in gaming?
It sounds like something that could go over really badly. I'm not saying I wouldn't participate, I just need more details. What I'm imagining right now isn't very nice.
Housekeeping
3571
I guess my position is that there is asinine shit on both sides of the fence, and the asinine stuff, like normal, is what's being discussed. All the harassment is completely asinine, and it's essentially 4chan being 4chan, which isn't to say that 4chan being 4chan is an acceptable thing, just that it's been happening for a long time and now they have something to focus on and it's getting a lot of coverage. The idea that gaming journalism needs to be ethical is a valid point, but the REAL issue is corporate influence. Even if Zoe Quinn slept her way to the top (I don't know if she did or care one way or the other), it would be an isolated incident, but corporations have the money to influence sales on a large scale, and it's something they do.
On the other side, this has sparked a debate on the depiction of women in gaming, and they absolutely have a point: women are constantly objectified in gaming. This shouldn't be surprising, as teenage males have been pandered to for years now, and the easiest way to do that is to sell them male power fantasies. But, really, the issue isn't the misogyny; it's the underlying laziness of the writing. If social justice warriors succeed and have more female protagonists in gaming, the result will probably end up being fulfillment of female power fantasies, which is only marginally better than what we currently have since it's not triggering anyone's centuries-old internalized ire. The right path is to depict people as they actually are--i.e. everything that's good, bad, interesting, and scary about humanity, but that takes a wide perspective of the world, a keen sense of empathy, and years of thought and practice in the art of writing, which is severely underappreciated in this medium.
Total aside, so feel free to ignore, but this article has a narrow perspective, and the comparison of gamergate to disco is completely asinine. Disco came out at the same time as the punk movement; there was a lot of anti-corporate sentiment, and disco was the most corporate entity in music at the time. It DEFINITELY wasn't black music; the reviewer must have forgotten about funk, which all the privileged white males he's railing against thought was FUCKING SWEET because it fucking IS. Disco was big in the gay scene, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were some homophobic undercurrents, but then that doesn't take new wave's (which had a big homosexual component) enormous surge in popularity within a few years after disco.
Also, diversity didn't "win" in music; popular music has always been homogenized, overly simplistic, and terrible. I've noticed a tendency in people who really care about gender, sexuality, and race issues that they think that these factors motivate everything, but they're forgetting all of the other sociological, political, and economic factors. I don't think that the central point in that article regarding gamergate is completely without merit, but I do think that it's trying to turn a complex issue into a simple one. White male privilege has been the root of several evils in the past, but it's not a catchall scapegoat. There are a lot of factors at work in 2014 just like in 1979.
On the other side, this has sparked a debate on the depiction of women in gaming, and they absolutely have a point: women are constantly objectified in gaming. This shouldn't be surprising, as teenage males have been pandered to for years now, and the easiest way to do that is to sell them male power fantasies. But, really, the issue isn't the misogyny; it's the underlying laziness of the writing. If social justice warriors succeed and have more female protagonists in gaming, the result will probably end up being fulfillment of female power fantasies, which is only marginally better than what we currently have since it's not triggering anyone's centuries-old internalized ire. The right path is to depict people as they actually are--i.e. everything that's good, bad, interesting, and scary about humanity, but that takes a wide perspective of the world, a keen sense of empathy, and years of thought and practice in the art of writing, which is severely underappreciated in this medium.
author=Isrieri
kentona linked a badass article on the subject that I feel explains the group pretty well.
author=kentona
#StopGamerGate2014
E:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/16/of-gamers-gates-and-disco-demolition-the-roots-of-reactionary-rage.html
Total aside, so feel free to ignore, but this article has a narrow perspective, and the comparison of gamergate to disco is completely asinine. Disco came out at the same time as the punk movement; there was a lot of anti-corporate sentiment, and disco was the most corporate entity in music at the time. It DEFINITELY wasn't black music; the reviewer must have forgotten about funk, which all the privileged white males he's railing against thought was FUCKING SWEET because it fucking IS. Disco was big in the gay scene, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were some homophobic undercurrents, but then that doesn't take new wave's (which had a big homosexual component) enormous surge in popularity within a few years after disco.
Also, diversity didn't "win" in music; popular music has always been homogenized, overly simplistic, and terrible. I've noticed a tendency in people who really care about gender, sexuality, and race issues that they think that these factors motivate everything, but they're forgetting all of the other sociological, political, and economic factors. I don't think that the central point in that article regarding gamergate is completely without merit, but I do think that it's trying to turn a complex issue into a simple one. White male privilege has been the root of several evils in the past, but it's not a catchall scapegoat. There are a lot of factors at work in 2014 just like in 1979.
Gamergate is not about ethics in game journalism.
Gamergate is about harassing feminists.
Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.
Gamergate is about harassing feminists.
Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.
Gamergate is actually a type of female ant in certain species that can reproduce with a male and become the new queen of a colony that lost theirs! They should've gone with gamerghazi, Watergate was before most of these fuckers were even born and Gamersgate wouldn't be sullied by association.
author=Pizzaauthor=LibertyIt sounds like something that could go over really badly. I'm not saying I wouldn't participate, I just need more details. What I'm imagining right now isn't very nice.
So... all in favour of starting up Ethica - an all-gamer-inclusive focus on ethics in gaming?
This pretty much, plus I think it would have to be damn serious about its own ethics, unless it wanted to suffer the fate of having an ironic name and being insignificant in the long run. Another thing; It'd have to be TRULY diverse; that means everyone who wants to have a civil, frank, and threat free discussion is allowed to be a part of it, and no inclusion/exclusion for the sake of convenience.
author=Solitayre
Gamergate is not about ethics in game journalism.
Gamergate is about harassing feminists.
Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.
Thank you for proving my point and being a part of the problem.
I would join about Ethica IF it was about including anyone and everyone with a vision to make a game and IF it didn't get in involved in political bullshit and IF there were reprecussions for any member expressing a bigoted attitude of any kind.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Zeigfried_McBaconauthor=SolitayreThank you for proving my point and being a part of the problem.
Gamergate is not about ethics in game journalism.
Gamergate is about harassing feminists.
Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.
What in the name of God are you on about? I mean, I appreciate you trying to play devil's advocate and everything, but these people have no point.
