Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
SOOO... GAMERGATE
Posts
Zeigfried_McBacon
View playlists
CloseThink I'm gonna bow out of this one since I feel the start of another meltdown coming, and even coming close to having one a month or so ago is bad enough. I apologize for that retraction several pages back(a flag was triggered, I asked kentona a question regarding it and he gave me a reasonable answer). So, I would like to thank staff (again?) for not going ban happy/locking/warning over all this despite the differing opinions.
Before I do shove off, I need to stress the importance of keeping calm and avoiding logical fallacies when and where possible. I'm not saying I've been perfect by any means in this regard, but it is none the less important if anything positive is to come from all this. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to creep my way back into the RMN test subject disposal facility...
Before I do shove off, I need to stress the importance of keeping calm and avoiding logical fallacies when and where possible. I'm not saying I've been perfect by any means in this regard, but it is none the less important if anything positive is to come from all this. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to creep my way back into the RMN test subject disposal facility...
I intended to abandon this ship a while back but then Solitayre slammed my hypocrisy berserk button and I went nuclear.
Crystalgate
694
author=Max McGeeClaiming that GameGate is a reactionary backlash against radical feminists sounds about as plausible as claiming that racists threatening people working against racism is a reactionary backlash against radical anti-racists.This is a false equivalency. By the way, I really hope you don't think my describing #GG as a "reactionary backlash" is the same as describing it as "good" or "okay". Reactionary backlashes are not good things.
I'm not seeing the false equivalence.
I don't think you see a reactionary backlash as a good thing, but I do not believe GamerGate is a reaction to radical feminism.
No one is actually going to permanently back out of this thread. People like arguing about things way too much for that to happen.
...I would love if this were the final post of the thread
...I would love if this were the final post of the thread
her free game. Free.
(which only happened right after Robin Williams left us, whether or not you think it was to ride on it for popularity is up to you)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2014/08/14/depression-quest-free-on-steam-in-wake-of-robin-williams-suicide/
it's been on Steam since around January
http://www.gameskinny.com/fn63g/depression-quest-becomes-first-twine-game-on-steam
EDIT: oh lord.. I take too long to type and article-hunt.
I had originally intended for a longer post with a bunch of links and sources and crap about the initial 2013 Wizardchan "harassment" (which, yes, I would claim to be the true start of all this shit), but decided against that and chose to just challenge the quoted statement instead as I figured that debate on it would further sour moods
and now all this stuff pops up o-o
EDIT 2: I'd only really look at this if you're wanting to continue discussions
author=Crystalgateauthor=Max McGeeI'm not seeing the false equivalence.Claiming that GameGate is a reactionary backlash against radical feminists sounds about as plausible as claiming that racists threatening people working against racism is a reactionary backlash against radical anti-racists.This is a false equivalency. By the way, I really hope you don't think my describing #GG as a "reactionary backlash" is the same as describing it as "good" or "okay". Reactionary backlashes are not good things.
I don't think you see a reactionary backlash as a good thing, but I do not believe GamerGate is a reaction to radical feminism.
The false equivalence is that GamerGate taken broadly doesn't have the same relationship to women as racists do to minorities. GamerGate taken broadly has the same relationship to radfems and SJWs as racists do to minorities.
It is total bullshit to say everyone involved with GamerGate hates women. That is true only of a minority. Many people in GamerGate in fact ARE women. (In the same way that the fact that not everyone involved in feminism is a psycho feminazi does not absolve feminism of its problematic elements, this fact does not absolve #GamerGate of its problematic elements.)
author=Yellow Magic
No one is actually going to permanently back out of this thread. People like arguing about things way too much for that to happen.
Look out guys. Looks like someone is RIGHT on the internet!
I hate to admit it, but GamerGate is the new Occupy Wall Street
At first, people had clear goals, but when people started hopping on the bandwagon, it became a cesspool of retards with unclear goals
At first, people had clear goals, but when people started hopping on the bandwagon, it became a cesspool of retards with unclear goals
I have been reading a lot of things and I feel like I am really overflowing with insight about this entire awful cultural shitfight. I know I've been posting a lot in this topic. A lot. Entirely too much. I'm working through some stuff and this is really affecting me. I actually really appreciate that I haven't received any warnings or sanctions or seen the thread get locked just for the volume of my posts (I don't mean like obnoxious doubletriple spam posting, I just mean posting a lot in a thread): as insanely fascist as that sounds, that's a real thing that happens in some places on the internet and it is refreshing seeing freedom of speech actually exist here on RMN. Anyway I guess just...I cautiously apologize for the sheer volume of my communications, and I thank anyone who's actually still reading my walls of text.
Ok, so basically...insight.
This entire horrible cultural shitfight is happening because of a collision between two groups (feminists and white male nerds) who both feel so marginalized and oppressed, who both harbor such a bitter, victimization mentality that they think that literally anything they say or do to the other side is acceptable because of the wrongs they've historically suffered and the way they have historically been treated.
And both sides have the mindset that they have been so wronged they can no longer do wrong, been hurt so much and so often that they are entitled to hurt all they please.
Every extremist on both sides thinks they are the Count Of Monte Cristo and it is a revenge-fantasy clusterfuck of Oldboy proportions.
Ok, so basically...insight.
This entire horrible cultural shitfight is happening because of a collision between two groups (feminists and white male nerds) who both feel so marginalized and oppressed, who both harbor such a bitter, victimization mentality that they think that literally anything they say or do to the other side is acceptable because of the wrongs they've historically suffered and the way they have historically been treated.
And both sides have the mindset that they have been so wronged they can no longer do wrong, been hurt so much and so often that they are entitled to hurt all they please.
Every extremist on both sides thinks they are the Count Of Monte Cristo and it is a revenge-fantasy clusterfuck of Oldboy proportions.
Crystalgate
694
author=Max McGee
The false equivalence is that GamerGate taken broadly doesn't have the same relationship to women as racists do to minorities. GamerGate taken broadly has the same relationship to radfems and SJWs as racists do to minorities.
It is total bullshit to say everyone involved with GamerGate hates women. That is true only of a minority. Many people in GamerGate in fact ARE women. (In the same way that the fact that not everyone involved in feminism is a psycho feminazi does not absolve feminism of its problematic elements, this fact does not absolve #GamerGate of its problematic elements.)
Here's the original text I quoted:
author=Max McGee
The key understanding I wish you could internalize and reflect upon is that radical feminists and social justice warriors are contributing noticeably to the toxification of the culture not just for women, but for everyone. Feminism is not blameless in the creation of this toxic culture in gaming. GamerGate is--not claims to be, but actually is--a reactionary backlash against radical feminist ideologues as much as it is anything else.
Since that was what I quoted, anyone you didn't include when you wrote GamerGate should by extension not be considered included when I did it either. So, we are only referring to those who are part of the reactionary backlash.
I have not claimed that everyone in GamerGate hates women. That women are part of it is also 100% irrelevant. Women being part of something doesn't mean it's not anti-feminist or what have you.
I feel like we're getting our wires crossed here and I am actually having trouble understanding what we're disagreeing about.
Is GamerGate anti-feminist? Definitely. I have no problem with that. I don't deny that. Modern feminism is fucking terrible. The fact that GamerGate is anti-feminist is in my mind one of its redeeming qualities. Because modern (radical) feminism is awful.
Does #GamerGate include folks who are also loathesome misogynistic trolls? Yes. And that is terrible.
Anti-feminism--assuming that it is positioned as rational opposition to MODERN (radical) FEMINISM--is a good thing.
Misogyny is a bad thing.
The problem with GamerGate is not that it is anti-feminist. But there are many problems with #GamerGate. Like the fact the entire thing was founded on a laughably false accusation and as pointed out accurately earlier, has accomplished nothing positive.
Does feminism--old school early wave egalitarian humanist feminism--still have a place in the world? Definitely. Several places. Like the Middle East. The Middle East could use some more feminism.
But the umbrella term of feminism cannot stand both for people like Malala who want basic human rights for women and horrifying psychopathically misandrist cuntmonsters like Dworkin that literally believe all men are rapists, or should be treated like rapists until they conclusively have proven otherwise. Nomenclature can be important, and one of these ideologies needs to be renamed.
Feminists need to disavow the wretched, vile creatures that I indicated above from their ranks en masse if they want to start the rehabilitation that modern feminism sorely needs. Like the worst #GamerGate tweets are doing to gamers, these people are giving feminism a bad name.
Is GamerGate anti-feminist? Definitely. I have no problem with that. I don't deny that. Modern feminism is fucking terrible. The fact that GamerGate is anti-feminist is in my mind one of its redeeming qualities. Because modern (radical) feminism is awful.
Does #GamerGate include folks who are also loathesome misogynistic trolls? Yes. And that is terrible.
Anti-feminism--assuming that it is positioned as rational opposition to MODERN (radical) FEMINISM--is a good thing.
Misogyny is a bad thing.
The problem with GamerGate is not that it is anti-feminist. But there are many problems with #GamerGate. Like the fact the entire thing was founded on a laughably false accusation and as pointed out accurately earlier, has accomplished nothing positive.
Does feminism--old school early wave egalitarian humanist feminism--still have a place in the world? Definitely. Several places. Like the Middle East. The Middle East could use some more feminism.
But the umbrella term of feminism cannot stand both for people like Malala who want basic human rights for women and horrifying psychopathically misandrist cuntmonsters like Dworkin that literally believe all men are rapists, or should be treated like rapists until they conclusively have proven otherwise. Nomenclature can be important, and one of these ideologies needs to be renamed.
Feminists need to disavow the wretched, vile creatures that I indicated above from their ranks en masse if they want to start the rehabilitation that modern feminism sorely needs. Like the worst #GamerGate tweets are doing to gamers, these people are giving feminism a bad name.
Crystalgate
694
author=Max McGee
I feel like we're getting our wires crossed here and I am actually having trouble understanding what we're disagreeing about.
For example, you claimed GG was a backlash against radical feminists while I think it's a backlash against pretty much all forms of feminism.
Feminists need to disavow the wretched, vile creatures that I indicated above from their ranks en masse if they want to start the rehabilitation that modern feminism sorely needs. Like the worst #GamerGate tweets are doing to gamers, these people are giving feminism a bad name.
Being a misandrist should not mean that you're a feminist, but it also doesn't mean you're automatically excluded from being one. The feminists may be able to disavow some of the misandrists, but there's not way they can do so with the misandry as a whole. How much you like or hate men isn't part of the definition of feminism, so you cannot exclude the man haters.
Then feminism will need to always be synonymous with misandry if it can't exclude the subset of "man-hating feminists" from the set of "feminists".
And that will perpetually be a problem for feminism, and if feminism TRULY can't dissociate itself from misandry, it will create things like #GamerGate which are more of a backlash against FEMINISM than they are a misogynistic crusade against women. And by that I mean largely a backlash against (real or perceived) MISANDRY.
For instance, I think Anita Sarkeesian, specifically, as an individual human person, is a stupid cunt. That does not make me a misogynist. I think a LOT of #GamerGate would agree with me. (Feminists might argue that the c-word is a gendered insult. But the way I use it, referring equally to men and women as cunts (ask WIP if you don't believe me), is more like the way it's used in BRITISH slang than American slang.)
Perpetual disclaimer: I still think #GamerGate is stupid, misguided, infested with horrible trolls, was built on a foundation of bullshit and has accomplished nothing.
And that will perpetually be a problem for feminism, and if feminism TRULY can't dissociate itself from misandry, it will create things like #GamerGate which are more of a backlash against FEMINISM than they are a misogynistic crusade against women. And by that I mean largely a backlash against (real or perceived) MISANDRY.
For instance, I think Anita Sarkeesian, specifically, as an individual human person, is a stupid cunt. That does not make me a misogynist. I think a LOT of #GamerGate would agree with me. (Feminists might argue that the c-word is a gendered insult. But the way I use it, referring equally to men and women as cunts (ask WIP if you don't believe me), is more like the way it's used in BRITISH slang than American slang.)
Perpetual disclaimer: I still think #GamerGate is stupid, misguided, infested with horrible trolls, was built on a foundation of bullshit and has accomplished nothing.
Am I the only one who keeps reading this thread title in a Valley Girl accent? Like, sooooo totally gamergate guuuuuuys~
Jesus Christ I have been posting in this thread the entire time Liberty was, somewhere in Australia, sleeping.
I'm really gonna take a break now.
I'm really gonna take a break now.
author=Max McGee
And both sides have the mindset that they have been so wronged they can no longer do wrong, been hurt so much and so often that they are entitled to hurt all they please.
This is really good and true.
The difference being who backs each respective side. Anti-GG is mostly establishment types and big media. GamerGate supporters are either powerless peasants or are underground/alternative media.
Frankly, I'm anti-GG but not about ethics - just the way the majority of them act over the gender issue and how the whole movement began.
As for ethics, I'm all for them as long as it's not threatening people with death, rape and the like.
Actually, that sums up my 'side' perfectly - All for ethics as long as the 'fight' doesn't threaten people with death, rape and the like, poke noses into private lives making it personal rather than professional and acting like any gamer is less than another because of any reason (gender, sexuality, race or type of game being played).
As for ethics, I'm all for them as long as it's not threatening people with death, rape and the like.
Actually, that sums up my 'side' perfectly - All for ethics as long as the 'fight' doesn't threaten people with death, rape and the like, poke noses into private lives making it personal rather than professional and acting like any gamer is less than another because of any reason (gender, sexuality, race or type of game being played).
