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SOOO... GAMERGATE
Posts
Max McGee
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Closeauthor=Crystalgateauthor=DarklordKeinorThat is complete bullshit.
"And they will never be happy. If you don’t have a gay character in your game, you are homophobic, if you do have gay character in your game, you are homophobic, because they don’t like the character. If women in your game look good, you are sexist, if they look bad, you are sexist, if you can fight with them, you are misogynistic, if you can’t fight with them, you are using them as objects, if you don’t have any women, because there is no correct way how to have them, you are misogynistic.
It’s a witch hunt and it’s affecting my artistic freedom."
- Daniel Vavra, Designer of the Mafia Series
Let's start with the gay character part. This is flat out false. I have followed a couple of videogames during development and it's very rare that people complain about the lack of gay characters. Sometimes a topic pops up where the OP requests mare gay characters, but that's usually it.
As far as people complaining about female characters goes, usually the more people complain, the more there also is to complain about. It's not always the case, sometimes a game ends up taking more fire than other games due to chance, but usually when a game receives a lot of flak, it's for a reason.
If he says there's no correct way to use female characters, that means he haven't figured out a correct way to use them and nothing else.
Just an hour after writing the post, Day was doxxed (i.e., had her private or identifying information published with malicious intent). Former NFL player Chris Kluwe pointed out the inherent sexism in the fact that #GamerGate doxxed Day but did not make his information public, even though he wrote his own post calling GamerGaters “basement-dwelling, cheetos-huffing, poopsock-sniffing douchepistols,” among dozens of other equally creative insults.
This was reported by Time magazine. Quoted it because the insults are amusing.
This was reported by Time magazine. Quoted it because the insults are amusing.
Crystalgate
694
author=Max McGee
Notice how I said that the part with the gay characters is flat out wrong, but for the part with the female characters instead made a "the more people complain, the more there usually is to complain about" statement. There will always be someone who complains no matter what you do. However, how many it is who complain differs. There is a difference between there being occasional people who complain about sexism spread out among the vast number of gaming boards and the complaints existing in most boards who discusses the game in question.
The "everything is sexist" excuse works if you only have a very few complaints, but not so much if there seems to be no end of them. In the case of Daniel Vavra, chance is he is one of those who should not make that excuse.
There will always be someone who complains no matter what you do.
Sarkeesoid is doing an awesome job of being that someone. And getting well paid for bitching about how everything is always sexist.
"Feminism this" "Feminists that"
Jesuschrist! Is this line of discussion helping anything? You're even making me want to join the anti-gamergate side just because of this. (For the record, I'm neutral). I mean, the point has been beaten to death. And the parallel between feminism and gamergate is becoming tackier and tackier. Let people indulge on their double standards, they'll never get it.
Something something about games, fun, politics, and other related issues.
I think is important to make a distinction between games as a medium and games as games. The two are not mutually exclusive. Certainly anyone can use the medium as a platform to push their silly beliefs (Incidentally, nobody likes it when the military uses games as a recruiting tool, but hey, "social engineering!" amirite?) But this is not something I want from the "entertainment industry" side of the medium. I want my vidya-gams to be the less politicized as possible. I play videogames to have fun, first and foremost.
Regardless, we cannot operate under the premise that games influence people. We have to operate under the premise that people let games influence them. Games do not radiate hypnotic rays that tell people what to think or how to act. And that is not the intent of your average game studios... Please note that this does not preclude developers from expressing themselves, from tackling complex issues, or trying new things -- quite the opposite. What it does is return agency to the consumer to make their own choices. It returns society the ability to hold individuals accountable for their wrongdoings without the "games made me do it" distraction. And it returns developers and players the ability to create/enjoy the games they want without the stigma of being labeled "complicit" of certain behaviors.
And even then I'd agree that developers share some degree of responsibility about what they create. But I think there's more productive ways to improve our situation than to inoculate games from all things "pernicious" or whatever. Like for example: facilitating the player accurate information about themes you may have approached with some artistic leisure. Or including trigger warnings for people who may feel legitimate upset about certain topics. etc... Dunno. This is probably a discussion for another time.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Games are art and fun?
You know how you make art fun for men? Put a small hole in it.
This makes me laugh every time I read it.
You know how you make art fun for men? Put a small hole in it.
author=kentona
“basement-dwelling, cheetos-huffing, poopsock-sniffing douchepistols,”
This makes me laugh every time I read it.
author=TehGuyauthor=kentonaquality stuff
“basement-dwelling, cheetos-huffing, poopsock-sniffing douchepistols,”
My initial response to seeing that quote was asking if we were sure Chris Kluwe wasn't one of us posting on RMN.
author=ae
Jesuschrist! Is this line of discussion helping anything? You're even making me want to join the anti-gamergate side just because of this. (For the record, I'm neutral). I mean, the point has been beaten to death. And the parallel between feminism and gamergate is becoming tackier and tackier. Let people indulge on their double standards, they'll never get it.
The reasons for my reiteration, personally, can be boiled down thusly:
CAN YOU DEFINE A MOVEMENT SOLELY BY ITS WORST VISIBLE ACTORS, OR CAN'T YOU?
See, anti-gamergate people are using this logic to make categorical denouncements of gamergate as being "about" misogyny and harassment. But if you use the same logic, feminism is a hate movement.
Even if it may seem tacky or overstated, the parallel between gg and feminism is important because it IS a double standard being employed.
And I have yet to see anyone who is anti-gamergate actually respond directly to this specific point. And I'd really like to hear them attempt to justify or at least acknowledge this double standard.
author=Corfaisus
You know how you make art fun for men? Put a small hole in it.
This is so misandrist that I was actually tempted to report it. Speaking of double standards...seriously...do you have any idea how butthurt people would get if you altered/reversed this statement so it targeted women?
author=Max McGeeauthor=CorfaisusThis is so misandrist that I was actually tempted to report it. Seriously...do you have any idea how butthurt people would get if you altered/reversed this statement so it targeted women?
You know how you make art fun for men? Put a small hole in it.
Yeah, being an artist I'm actually extremely offended by that statement. But I'm trying to stay out of this discussion, so I'm not gonna attack it.
"It's always important to keep in mind that it's entirely possible to be critical of some aspects of media while still finding other parts valueable or enjoyable" - Anita Sarkeesian
I don't find her tropes series that bad. You could look at TV tropes and say "OH NOES" whenever you see a range of tropes frequently used ..
It's just that many stereotypes have setbacks, which makes a variety of them much more enjoyable. You can't make everyone happy - that's how it's always been and always gonna be. That doesn't justify looking deeper into it.
She does point to a few tropes so common I don't even notice them anymore.
I don't promote the whole female = male procedure. They're different for the most part, and that's something to embrace. That doesn't mean that it has to be that way for individuals, of course.
I don't find her tropes series that bad. You could look at TV tropes and say "OH NOES" whenever you see a range of tropes frequently used ..
It's just that many stereotypes have setbacks, which makes a variety of them much more enjoyable. You can't make everyone happy - that's how it's always been and always gonna be. That doesn't justify looking deeper into it.
She does point to a few tropes so common I don't even notice them anymore.
I don't promote the whole female = male procedure. They're different for the most part, and that's something to embrace. That doesn't mean that it has to be that way for individuals, of course.
Crystalgate
694
author=Max McGee
Sarkeesoid is doing an awesome job of being that someone. And getting well paid for bitching about how everything is always sexist.
I highly doubt Sarkeesian alone qualifies as the witch hunt Daniel Vavra was talking about. I'm not so sure about the "no matter what you do" though. This assumes the games she's complaining about actually has made a decent effort towards not being sexist which may not be the case. I will admit that I haven't looked trough every complaint she's made though.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Max McGeeauthor=Corfaisus
You know how you make art fun for men? Put a small hole in it.
This is so misandrist that I was actually tempted to report it.
It's a joke. Cool it.
Also, misandrist.
That MS. Male Characters (female counterparts) are usually stereotype and nothing more is a lie? And all else? C'mon. You needn't believe everything, but not all is crap.
Oh well. Nothing to be had here, or at least nothing new. I'm out of here.
Oh well. Nothing to be had here, or at least nothing new. I'm out of here.
author=Corfaisusauthor=Max McGeeIt's a joke. Cool it.author=Corfaisus
You know how you make art fun for men? Put a small hole in it.
This is so misandrist that I was actually tempted to report it.
Which is why I didn't report it. Still, though, if you'd gender-flipped it you'd be up to your nipples in butthurt, which is a bullshit double standard.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Max McGeeauthor=CorfaisusWhich is why I didn't report it. Still, though, if you'd gender-flipped it you'd be up to your nipples in butthurt, which is a bullshit double standard.author=Max McGeeIt's a joke. Cool it.author=Corfaisus
You know how you make art fun for men? Put a small hole in it.
This is so misandrist that I was actually tempted to report it.
How do you make a reverse of that? You tell me. You tell me a way in which that would actually make sense.
Also, I'm a man cracking wise about piss-ant men who bitch about everything and who are clearly just in it for the porn.
@MaxMcGee: That video didn't say anything. She clearly states that she doesn't like certain types of games. Just because she doesn't play super-violent shooter games means she's not a gamer? It's like everyone's thinking all games are gritty FPS's or something.
Also these set of twitter posts are relevant to the whole "Yes there are strong female leads" argument:
Also these set of twitter posts are relevant to the whole "Yes there are strong female leads" argument:
author=Ratty524
Also these set of twitter posts are relevant to the whole "Yes there are strong female leads" argument:
If you want true, unbiased equality: People and companies will design games based on what they want to design, and customers will buy them or not buy them based on whether they want to buy them. If a particular gender of character yields better $$$ - so be it. Capitalism is beautiful like that sometimes.
That video didn't say anything.
"I've been a gamer since I was 5, I love videogames" versus "I'm not a fan of videogames".
The point is she's a fucking liar. She manipulates whether or not to present herself as a gamer depending on who she's talking to. (And yes, that is something something a lot of people have done under certain circumstances, usually in the world of "serious business", because they are afraid of backlash if they identify as being a gamer.)
But the reason it's offensive here is that she used her lies about loving videogames to further her wildly successful Kickstarter.
Also these set of twitter posts are relevant to the whole "Yes there are strong female leads" argument:
I am blown away by his debunking of one of the 28+ strong female video game leads mentioned in that humorous comic alone. Edit: actually, nevermind, what he debunked wasn't even one of those 28 mentioned in the comic.
So no, it's not REMOTELY FUCKING EQUIVALENT to saying that "Racism Is Over" because we have had one black president.
DarklordKeinor
2478
author=Crystalgate
Let's start with the gay character part. This is flat out false. I have followed a couple of videogames during development and it's very rare that people complain about the lack of gay characters. Sometimes a topic pops up where the OP requests mare gay characters, but that's usually it.
So because you've followed several videogames during development, and issues did not arise on the topic, there exists no LGBT criticism?
Here are several examples that exist.
author=Crystalgate
As far as people complaining about female characters goes, usually the more people complain, the more there also is to complain about. It's not always the case, sometimes a game ends up taking more fire than other games due to chance, but usually when a game receives a lot of flak, it's for a reason.
If he says there's no correct way to use female characters, that means he haven't figured out a correct way to use them and nothing else.
It varies from case to case. Some complaints have validity, others are cherry-picked.
Critics complained about this scene, citing that it is unreasonable to make Lara Croft a rape survivor. Except if you watch the scene, though there is blatant sexual overtones, the man in it is attempting to strangle Lara to death. Here is a line from the article, the thesis:
"The idea that Lara – like Samus from Metroid – should have an origin story in which she is weak in order to explain her strength is difficult to swallow. Male characters are generally permitted to be strong without needing a back story in which they are broken – why should female characters be different? Why do we need to protect Lara through an awful ordeal for her strength to make sense?"
First of all, this argument conveniently ignores multiple instances of female characters being powerful without a justification. The protagonist of Portal and Lara Croft from her previous incarnations in the Tomb Raider series are two immediate examples. The reboot changes this fact, but is it necessarily wrong to do so? Characters grow from adversity. Because the context in this case was rape, though a watch of the video indicates that to be a false claim, it is unacceptable.
The Walking Dead show uses this trope on occasion, and criticism, while it does exist, seems to be more accepting of it.
Second, there does exist movies and games in which male characters go from being weak to badasses. Fight Club? The original Evil Dead movie? Star Wars?
On the video game medium, one quick example that comes to mind is Tales of the Abyss with Luke Von Fabre. Examples exist that clearly contradict these criticisms.
Back to your point, Crystalgate, it is debatable how to correctly implement a female character. There are obvious examples that don't work, such as Duke Nukem Forever sexploitative nature. Once again though, people will debate over anything, no matter how much forethought the designers put into their games.
And for the record, the best female character in a game that I have probably seen is The Boss from Metal Gear Solid 3.
