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GAMES YOU HATE OR DISLIKE?
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Craze
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Closeif you don't like fighting games, play skullgirls. great tutorial that somewhat revitalizes the ancient, crusty genre standards of fighting games
then play dissidia duodecim 012 because quarterturns are stupid
then play dissidia duodecim 012 because quarterturns are stupid
author=Craze
if you don't like fighting games, play skullgirls. great tutorial that somewhat revitalizes the ancient, crusty genre standards of fighting games
I feel like Skullgirls was a hit and miss for fighting game enthusiasts. On one hand, it's a great game with all sorts of new and interesting mechanics to play with. It was mostly a hit, though; eople still turn out to play it for big name tournaments and such. It's a very solid game.
On the other hand, it is kind of like what would happen if someone made up a new game called Bikini Chess! (DLC to chess) or something; some of its gameplay mechanics are underdeveloped compared to what they could have been and honestly the fighting game genre is technically robust enough to really need half baked NEW!!! mechanics (like Bikini Chess).
Games like Street Fighter 3rd Strike or Virtua Fighter 5 can take literally years to master, which is why fighting games (not unlike chess) can still turn out vast worldwide turnout and millions of active fans and tournaments on a daily basis.
Fighting games do evolve though, and I can follow that up by stating how almost every new fighting game has something different or new to offer. However, a lot of the new features or mechanics that different fighting games have to offer has a pretty moderate to high skill barrier to take advantage of.
For example, the introduction of Focus Attack in Street Fighter IV completely changes the game and for better or worse is one of the craziest additions to the series, but unless you're good enough to perform and utilize Focus Dashes, Focus Cancels, Armor Breaking attacks, absorbing damage while Focusing, utilizing Focuses to build meter, and taking advantage of crumples, the Focus Attack mechanic will mean absolute dick to you.
i think fighting games are bad because they rely on really arcane and difficult player inputs. like you've said, they have an extreme barrier to entry. i cannot fathom how this is good design or how it's continued for so long, although it clearly has.
basically why do people, creative people with a lot of money backing them, still make fighters based on joystick controls and putting in quarters instead of like... doing something cool with it? technically robust or not, it's one of two genres that i ignore 99% of the time (the other being survial horror but that is because i am a baby sissypants with pee-stained legs, not because of game design)
basically why do people, creative people with a lot of money backing them, still make fighters based on joystick controls and putting in quarters instead of like... doing something cool with it? technically robust or not, it's one of two genres that i ignore 99% of the time (the other being survial horror but that is because i am a baby sissypants with pee-stained legs, not because of game design)
author=Craze
i think fighting games are bad because they rely on really arcane and difficult player inputs. like you've said, they have an extreme barrier to entry. i cannot fathom how this is good design or how it's continued for so long, although it clearly has.
basically why do people, creative people with a lot of money backing them, still make fighters based on joystick controls and putting in quarters instead of like... doing something cool with it? technically robust or not, it's one of two genres that i ignore 99% of the time (the other being survial horror but that is because i am a baby sissypants with pee-stained legs, not because of game design)
Because it's fun as hell. Isn't that the point, after all?
EDIT: I'm not sure what you mean by putting in quarters? If you mean home consoles, than you don't have to put in quarters, and if you mean arcade machines, arcade machines are fun as shit, especially on the West Coast.
author=Sated
I don't think there's an extreme barrier to entry for fighting games. No more so than there is for competitive RTS/MOBA/FPS games. I guess what I'm saying is that if there is an extreme barrier to entry, it's not specific to fighting games; it's specific to competitive games.
This is true as well. Fighting games aren't hard to play (really, if you can perform Sabin's Aurabolt, you can play a fighting game), but they are hard to master, and playing casually and playing competitively are two different things.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Craze
basically why do people, creative people with a lot of money backing them, still make fighters based on joystick controls and putting in quarters instead of like... doing something cool with it?
The answer to every variation of this question is "Because the people holding the purse strings told them to." (Also, "Because the audience will buy that.")
Professional creative endeavours of any sort are not intended to push the boundaries of doing a cool thing. They are intended to make a profit.
Also I am super bad at fighting games but AFAICT the main draw for them is, "Look I mashed buttons and then the person on screen did something awesome! WOO!" At least, that's where my enjoyment comes from.
I think it's mostly because, does something NEED to be radically different to be fun? Fighting games have changed little because they haven't needed to. Just like a lot of things. Chess? Sports? Sex?
chess doesn't cost $60 =/
i don't think i'm fighting game savvy enough to continue the discussion so i'll bow out. play dissidia duodecim
i don't think i'm fighting game savvy enough to continue the discussion so i'll bow out. play dissidia duodecim
author=Feldschlacht IVauthor=SatedThis is true as well. Fighting games aren't hard to play (really, if you can perform Sabin's Aurabolt, you can play a fighting game), but they are hard to master, and playing casually and playing competitively are two different things.
I don't think there's an extreme barrier to entry for fighting games. No more so than there is for competitive RTS/MOBA/FPS games. I guess what I'm saying is that if there is an extreme barrier to entry, it's not specific to fighting games; it's specific to competitive games.
I can't consistently perform Sabin's Aurabolt. In fact, I didn't use Sabin very much in FFVI despite him being a powerful character. I did get better though.
Fun fact:
Real fun fact: FF6 can't read diagonal inputs for Blitzs and you can do Aurabolt with 100% success by replacing the down+left with either. So Down Down Left or Down Left Left will both trigger Aurabolt, no futzing with trying to do some quarter circles required!
GRS is right about Sabin. Although Sabin is sort of mid tier/not really all that powerful in the game itself, its a good trick for pulling off his Blitzes.
I agree that video games cost a hell of a lot. Most fighters aren't 60 dollars straight out, though.
Dissidia (and duodecim) are alright! I think comparing them to traditional fighting games are sort of apples and oranges though; 1. The RPG/equipment elements are cool, but in fighting game competitive play it doesn't work out; in competitive play it's all about pure skill with no outside gameplay related influences when it's player vs. player. 2. Dissidia, while fun, doesn't quite have the depth of play and balance that higher level traditional fighters do.
It's a good game in its own right, though.
author=Craze
chess doesn't cost $60 =/
i don't think i'm fighting game savvy enough to continue the discussion so i'll bow out. play dissidia duodecim
I agree that video games cost a hell of a lot. Most fighters aren't 60 dollars straight out, though.
Dissidia (and duodecim) are alright! I think comparing them to traditional fighting games are sort of apples and oranges though; 1. The RPG/equipment elements are cool, but in fighting game competitive play it doesn't work out; in competitive play it's all about pure skill with no outside gameplay related influences when it's player vs. player. 2. Dissidia, while fun, doesn't quite have the depth of play and balance that higher level traditional fighters do.
It's a good game in its own right, though.
Man, the idea of even having character tiers in a game as noncompetitive as FF6 is baffling to me. Anyone with a pair of earrings will kill that whole game, if anything Sabin is one of the better characters because he can do it out of the box with almost no effort required on your part if you can do the inputs.
I like Smash Bros. because I have hams for hands and I can't do inputs more complex than a direction + a button. Also, I'm pretty good at Smash :P
Give me any other fighting game and all I will know is how to spam projectiles and flail around trying to space. The ridiculous physical inputs you have to do in some fighting games are... bleh.
Give me any other fighting game and all I will know is how to spam projectiles and flail around trying to space. The ridiculous physical inputs you have to do in some fighting games are... bleh.
author=Soli
Man, the idea of even having character tiers in a game as noncompetitive as FF6 is baffling to me. Anyone with a pair of earrings will kill that whole game, if anything Sabin is one of the better characters because he can do it out of the box with almost no effort required on your part if you can do the inputs.
I'd agree. Character tiers in FF6 really only matter when you're comparing characters who are objectively better than the others when all statistical factors are taken into account. Sabin is only mid-low tier compared to everyone else when you're analyzing all of the variables, but he's still able to wreck the game out of the box in a normal playthrough.
author=slash
The ridiculous physical inputs you have to do in some fighting games are... bleh.
I think this is sort of overstated and really only comes into play when you're playing at a certain level of play. Anyone can learn how to do a quarter circle in either direction, which is the bread and butter of 99% of fighting games, and the other fundamentals, basic combos, blocking, canceling, zoning, and the like can be picked up by a novice in short time as well. Anything higher than that isn't required to have fun and play a fighting game, especially with someone of like skill (i.e., someone as good, or bad! as you are)
The thing that gets people intimidated by most fighting games is the max ceiling of skill between the best players and everyone else; the best Call of Duty player in the world compared to the average player is pretty high, and impressive, but measurable. The best Street Fighter IV player compared to the average player is however, absolutely fucking massive, like, Jesus Christ, space between galaxies massive. Even the best 100 Street Fighter IV players would render the average Street Fighter player helpless in 99 out of 100 matches. That level of skill is when you start approaching the pretzel ridiculously hard to pull off physical inputs. Not to mention the incredible level of knowledge, mental agility, and tactical execution.
However in order to have fun with a fighter you don't have to play at some hyper competitive level like that though! People see some crazy ass Evo match and assume all fighting game play is like that, but it isn't true; any two players of any relatively equal skill level can play a fighting game, and the basics aren't that hard to learn, and neither are the inputs.
There are enough low to mid level players in most fighting game communities (with some exceptions; pretty much everyone online for 3rd Strike is down to give you the beat down) for the average gamer to pick up a controller and go online for some matches.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
I like Smash because the items and random shit happening sometimes make up for the fact that I'm a button masher at heart.
Also it's insane which is generally a good quality in a game.
Also it's insane which is generally a good quality in a game.
Smash is a game close to my heart because its fun for button mashing casuals and very high level of skill! A six year old and a 20 year fighting game veteran can both have (although different kinds) of fun with the game!
LightningLord2
230
I think the problem with fighting games in particular is that the difference between professionals and casual players is far more pronounced than in other games:
In an RTS, I can't reach the same APM and micromanagement the Championship players have, but I can still do everything they can, albeit slower (building things, upgrading my units). The inputs I have to do are simply left clicking the units/buildings I want to act with and right clicking to tell them what to do. The general strategies aren't very execution heavy, either, as the building/upgrading times give you a fairly large margin of error. Only problem could be micromanaging units in combat.
In a fighting game, even in training mode, there's a great deal of difficulty to execute the moves at all - I can only really execute the quarter circle forward and the dragon punch thing myself, even then only when I'm not facing left. Now add on that you're not only expected to be able to execute individual moves, you're also supposed to know the combos, which include things like having 1/60 of a second to follow up a certain move, exploit glitches not listed in the manual (Kara Throws, Option Selects, Wavdashing etc.) and even throw in some moves that don't do anything but allow you to continue the combo.
If you want to have fun with the genre at its highest competetive level without having to pull off crazy inputs, try Divekick - the game is solely controlled with two buttons, Dive and Kick (yes, you don't have any directional input whatsoever) to execute divekicks, which result in an instant KO if you hit. That game is only about reading your opponent, judging spacing and assessing your opponent's capabilities.
In an RTS, I can't reach the same APM and micromanagement the Championship players have, but I can still do everything they can, albeit slower (building things, upgrading my units). The inputs I have to do are simply left clicking the units/buildings I want to act with and right clicking to tell them what to do. The general strategies aren't very execution heavy, either, as the building/upgrading times give you a fairly large margin of error. Only problem could be micromanaging units in combat.
In a fighting game, even in training mode, there's a great deal of difficulty to execute the moves at all - I can only really execute the quarter circle forward and the dragon punch thing myself, even then only when I'm not facing left. Now add on that you're not only expected to be able to execute individual moves, you're also supposed to know the combos, which include things like having 1/60 of a second to follow up a certain move, exploit glitches not listed in the manual (Kara Throws, Option Selects, Wavdashing etc.) and even throw in some moves that don't do anything but allow you to continue the combo.
If you want to have fun with the genre at its highest competetive level without having to pull off crazy inputs, try Divekick - the game is solely controlled with two buttons, Dive and Kick (yes, you don't have any directional input whatsoever) to execute divekicks, which result in an instant KO if you hit. That game is only about reading your opponent, judging spacing and assessing your opponent's capabilities.
LightningLord2
230
author=SatedIn an RTS, I can't reach the same APM and micromanagement the Championship players have, but I can still do everything they can, albeit slower (building things, upgrading my units). The inputs I have to do are simply left clicking the units/buildings I want to act with and right clicking to tell them what to do. The general strategies aren't very execution heavy, either, as the building/upgrading times give you a fairly large margin of error. Only problem could be micromanaging units in combat.As someone who has reached a relatively high level in an RTS (just outside the top 200 in Europe), I can tell you right now that the difference between someone like me (a skilled amateur) and a legitimate professional (aka. Koreans) is absolute light-years. I've played on teams with people who've been into the top 25 in Europe and even they were nowhere near as good as the professionals. It might seem like you can do everything that the top players can, but you can't; the simple truth is that the better you get at RTS games, the more you realise that you're fucking terrible.
It's true that the skill gap is that wide between an intermediate and a professionsal is massive (I know that, too, I played a few grandmaster-level chess computers), the execution difference in an RTS is mainly just speed. Even as an unskilled player, I know how a rush works, I can shift-click to queue up orders, I can time skills... they don't have anything I can't execute, it's just while I do one of these things, they do like 15 or so.
What I'm saying is that it's basically being beaten by a player and being beaten by controls.
Instead of RTS games, you could also list MOBAs, FPS games, PVP arenas - all of these can have similar levels of execution, but you're never struggling with the controls.
It doesn't help that fighting games are largely balanced around top-level play, which means that the balance will snap in half when played by less skilled players, simply because many balancing factors are gated behind terrible controls.
