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A MONTAGE OF THOUGHTS ABOUT SEVERAL GAMES
Posts
LouisCyphre
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CloseI think most people's gripe with FFX has to do with the cast, Tidus in particular.
Who here would play FF X-0 with the same systems and Jecht/Auron/Braska? Be serious.
I totally would.
Who here would play FF X-0 with the same systems and Jecht/Auron/Braska? Be serious.
I totally would.
Auron IS FFX. End of discussion.
I would; Jecht is cool.
post=118332
Who here would play FF X-0 with the same systems and Jecht/Auron/Braska? Be serious.
I would; Jecht is cool.
Geodude it looks like no one on that thread ever managed to present a decent argument against FF8. Allow me to provide one for you. I'm not going to go into the combat mechanics here. People either love drawing magic or they hate it. I'm not out to change anyone's mind here. There are spoilers in the following critique/rant but this game is ten+ years old so whatever.
Squall: Most people seem to dislike Squall. Once again, they dislike him for shallow and petty reasons, like he's angsty/emo. This is not really an accurate description and doesn't really do him justice. I liked Squall, he was a good character, he was a very decent, down to earth protagonist who was easy to identify with. My problem is more with his supporting cast. We are supposed to be presented early on with the idea that Squall is a selfish jerk who can't stand anyone. This is presented as a negative attitude for him to have. The problem here is that most of the people around him are either jerks (Irvine) or morons (Zell/Selphie) so when he rejects their offers of friendship, this comes across to me as the logical thing to do, rather than him being a jerk. Oddly, the one character he seems to have a decent relationship with is Seifer, with whom he shares a grudging yet mutual respect. Despite their obvious similarities they find themselves on separate sides of the battlefield simply because of their own beliefs: Squall believes it is his duty to defeat the sorceress, Seifer believes his is to protect her. In this sense, Squall is a very stoic character who believes in doing what is necessary regardless of his personal feelings on the matter.
What was the point of this whole ramble? It leads me to my next segment
Squall/Rinoa: The alleged "relationship" between Squall in Rinoa is a major focal point of the game. Her falling comatose at the beginning of the third act is a major rallying moment for Squall as it represents the moment where he rejects simply doing his duty and instead attempts to do something for himself. This should by all rights by a major moment of growth for him. The problem is there is absolutely no lead up to this moment whatsoever.
From the first time they ever meet, Rinoa is presented as a character who merely is annoying and irritating to Squall. He resents being hired by her to carry out a job which he does not think she takes very seriously (one of my favorite moments in the game is being able to chew her out in Timber for being an idiot.) From this point on she makes several advances towards Squall, which he always summarily rejects. He openly expresses resentment at the obvious attempts of his comrades to fix him up with her, particularly at the concert scene. He always stands by his motto that he is better off alone.
Given this, his sudden reversal on this position and openly grieving/pining for Rinoa is completely unsupported by anything that has happened so far. This is not to say there's no reason for him to change his nihilistic attitude and grow as a character, just that there is no justification in the story for this change in his attitude. None whatsoever. Given the magnitude to which this affects the plot later, it seems very odd that such a sudden change is given so little build-up. Even once Rinoa is up and about again, any romantic chemistry between them seems awkward and forced, never really driving home that Squall can even stand her. Since from this point on in the plot it is considered a love story, this is very poor storytelling/craft.
The Orphanage Scene: Probably the most contentious moment in the entire game, the writers suddenly expect us to swallow the pill that five of the six playable characters and two of the main villains all grew up together as a family and they all just conveniently forgot. As you mention, this is just a little story about how it was always their destiny to face the sorceress; after all, Edea raised them specifically to stop her if she ever went mad. But this scene and this plot twist are terrible for a couple of reasons.
1. The whole GF amnesia thing is clearly something added in simply to justify this very weak plot point. It is only mentioned once beforehand in an optional text in the very first room in the game that 99% of new players will miss, and this problem with GFs is never mentioned again, nor does it influence the plot in any other way.
2. Selphie suddenly drops the revelation that she has used a GFbefore transfering to Balamb Garden! This was some random GF she apparently found on a beach. Selphie does not come equipped with this GF, said GF was never mentioned before, is never mentioned again, and cannot apparently be found in game. In other words, this whole revelation is just some drywall paste stuffed into a massive plot hole to give Selphie amnesia. The writers could easily have brought this up earlier in the plot or made it relevant somehow, but they did not. This is just a lack of effort.
3. Irvine never lost his memory but never mentioned recognizing any of the party members or their target, the sorceress. His excuse for this was "he didn't want to say anything." Aside from making him look like a huge idiot, this is yet another opportunity for character growth wasted. The only hint to this in any way is his reluctance to fire on Sorceress Edea in Galbadia, and this is presented in game as being for entirely different reasons (and does not stop him from joining in the battle with her moments later.)
4. Had this plot point been introduced gradually and culminated up to the point of finally having to face the sorceress, it probably would have been far more acceptable. But this entire ordeal is dumped on the player in one scene literally ten minutes before the confrontation with Edea takes place.
Laguna: The duality between Squall and Laguna and your frequent sojourns into his life is probably my favorite part of the game (and not just because Man with the Machine Gun is awesome). The fact that he is a parallel/foil to Squall and how much you can learn about Squall/Rinoa's history if you pay attention are great narrative devices, and once again this ties into your thoughts on predestination (you can't change the past). However, like so much else these scenes start to fall through near the end of the game and we end up with pointless, random nonsense that makes little sense. Apparently it was necessary for us to play as Laguna pretending to be an actor, but moments like him defeating Sorceress Adel could sufficiently be conveyed in a 14 second cutscene.
Ultimecia: After two discs of chasing Sorceress Edea around the world and watching her commit horrible atrocities and some vague world domination scheme, she is suddenly vindicated of all fault because she was being mind controlled by another sorceress...FROM THE FUTURE. More accurately, the writers ran out of plot at this point but needed to extend the game another four hours so they made up a new villain on the spot, a villain with no foreshadowing whatsoever. Despite having no lines and no screen time, Sorceress Adel would have been a more compelling character for this role because she is at least referenced in the game before this point. More importantly, Ultimecia has no depth. she is a completely flat character with vague, unknowable motives doing something weird for reasons that are never explained. Is she just supposed to represent the ultimate culmination of what happens when the world persecutes sorceresses? This is certainly never explained or even hinted at, Ultimecia herself offers no reasons for her actions other than hatred for SeeD (given its an organization devoted to destroying her, its not an unreasonable hatred, but it does nothing to explain her actions.) Personally, even if its mostly unsupported nonsense, I find the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory very compelling because it provides this otherwise completely blank and empty character with rationale and motives for all her actions. But given we spend the final third of the game fighting some mystery villain from the future who is trying to destroy the world for vague and unexplained reasons, it really detracted from the experience for me.
Squall: Most people seem to dislike Squall. Once again, they dislike him for shallow and petty reasons, like he's angsty/emo. This is not really an accurate description and doesn't really do him justice. I liked Squall, he was a good character, he was a very decent, down to earth protagonist who was easy to identify with. My problem is more with his supporting cast. We are supposed to be presented early on with the idea that Squall is a selfish jerk who can't stand anyone. This is presented as a negative attitude for him to have. The problem here is that most of the people around him are either jerks (Irvine) or morons (Zell/Selphie) so when he rejects their offers of friendship, this comes across to me as the logical thing to do, rather than him being a jerk. Oddly, the one character he seems to have a decent relationship with is Seifer, with whom he shares a grudging yet mutual respect. Despite their obvious similarities they find themselves on separate sides of the battlefield simply because of their own beliefs: Squall believes it is his duty to defeat the sorceress, Seifer believes his is to protect her. In this sense, Squall is a very stoic character who believes in doing what is necessary regardless of his personal feelings on the matter.
What was the point of this whole ramble? It leads me to my next segment
Squall/Rinoa: The alleged "relationship" between Squall in Rinoa is a major focal point of the game. Her falling comatose at the beginning of the third act is a major rallying moment for Squall as it represents the moment where he rejects simply doing his duty and instead attempts to do something for himself. This should by all rights by a major moment of growth for him. The problem is there is absolutely no lead up to this moment whatsoever.
From the first time they ever meet, Rinoa is presented as a character who merely is annoying and irritating to Squall. He resents being hired by her to carry out a job which he does not think she takes very seriously (one of my favorite moments in the game is being able to chew her out in Timber for being an idiot.) From this point on she makes several advances towards Squall, which he always summarily rejects. He openly expresses resentment at the obvious attempts of his comrades to fix him up with her, particularly at the concert scene. He always stands by his motto that he is better off alone.
Given this, his sudden reversal on this position and openly grieving/pining for Rinoa is completely unsupported by anything that has happened so far. This is not to say there's no reason for him to change his nihilistic attitude and grow as a character, just that there is no justification in the story for this change in his attitude. None whatsoever. Given the magnitude to which this affects the plot later, it seems very odd that such a sudden change is given so little build-up. Even once Rinoa is up and about again, any romantic chemistry between them seems awkward and forced, never really driving home that Squall can even stand her. Since from this point on in the plot it is considered a love story, this is very poor storytelling/craft.
The Orphanage Scene: Probably the most contentious moment in the entire game, the writers suddenly expect us to swallow the pill that five of the six playable characters and two of the main villains all grew up together as a family and they all just conveniently forgot. As you mention, this is just a little story about how it was always their destiny to face the sorceress; after all, Edea raised them specifically to stop her if she ever went mad. But this scene and this plot twist are terrible for a couple of reasons.
1. The whole GF amnesia thing is clearly something added in simply to justify this very weak plot point. It is only mentioned once beforehand in an optional text in the very first room in the game that 99% of new players will miss, and this problem with GFs is never mentioned again, nor does it influence the plot in any other way.
2. Selphie suddenly drops the revelation that she has used a GFbefore transfering to Balamb Garden! This was some random GF she apparently found on a beach. Selphie does not come equipped with this GF, said GF was never mentioned before, is never mentioned again, and cannot apparently be found in game. In other words, this whole revelation is just some drywall paste stuffed into a massive plot hole to give Selphie amnesia. The writers could easily have brought this up earlier in the plot or made it relevant somehow, but they did not. This is just a lack of effort.
3. Irvine never lost his memory but never mentioned recognizing any of the party members or their target, the sorceress. His excuse for this was "he didn't want to say anything." Aside from making him look like a huge idiot, this is yet another opportunity for character growth wasted. The only hint to this in any way is his reluctance to fire on Sorceress Edea in Galbadia, and this is presented in game as being for entirely different reasons (and does not stop him from joining in the battle with her moments later.)
4. Had this plot point been introduced gradually and culminated up to the point of finally having to face the sorceress, it probably would have been far more acceptable. But this entire ordeal is dumped on the player in one scene literally ten minutes before the confrontation with Edea takes place.
Laguna: The duality between Squall and Laguna and your frequent sojourns into his life is probably my favorite part of the game (and not just because Man with the Machine Gun is awesome). The fact that he is a parallel/foil to Squall and how much you can learn about Squall/Rinoa's history if you pay attention are great narrative devices, and once again this ties into your thoughts on predestination (you can't change the past). However, like so much else these scenes start to fall through near the end of the game and we end up with pointless, random nonsense that makes little sense. Apparently it was necessary for us to play as Laguna pretending to be an actor, but moments like him defeating Sorceress Adel could sufficiently be conveyed in a 14 second cutscene.
Ultimecia: After two discs of chasing Sorceress Edea around the world and watching her commit horrible atrocities and some vague world domination scheme, she is suddenly vindicated of all fault because she was being mind controlled by another sorceress...FROM THE FUTURE. More accurately, the writers ran out of plot at this point but needed to extend the game another four hours so they made up a new villain on the spot, a villain with no foreshadowing whatsoever. Despite having no lines and no screen time, Sorceress Adel would have been a more compelling character for this role because she is at least referenced in the game before this point. More importantly, Ultimecia has no depth. she is a completely flat character with vague, unknowable motives doing something weird for reasons that are never explained. Is she just supposed to represent the ultimate culmination of what happens when the world persecutes sorceresses? This is certainly never explained or even hinted at, Ultimecia herself offers no reasons for her actions other than hatred for SeeD (given its an organization devoted to destroying her, its not an unreasonable hatred, but it does nothing to explain her actions.) Personally, even if its mostly unsupported nonsense, I find the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory very compelling because it provides this otherwise completely blank and empty character with rationale and motives for all her actions. But given we spend the final third of the game fighting some mystery villain from the future who is trying to destroy the world for vague and unexplained reasons, it really detracted from the experience for me.
post=118351
it's true though! you had more holes than X-ATM092
I dunno, I thought my points were solid, even though they were subjective. I couldn't see any real holes in my argument.
I remember my main gripes with the game was how 1. The orphanage thing was stupid 2. And how all of the characters were pretty much the same. At least with FFX, all of the main characters were VASTLY different in terms of age, beliefs, personalities, manner of speech, background, etc etc.
By the way geodude, you have yet to say why you didn't like FFX. I'm curious!
By the way geodude, you have yet to say why you didn't like FFX. I'm curious!
i am going to say that i did not play overly long because it was slow, plodding and boring. this is preventing me from writing an essay at this time
age: this is rather the point though, they're all supposed to be late school age or a) the setting collapses and b) most of the story's subtext disintegrates. not that either varied or similar age really has much of an impact on characterisation of a group but i am not going to go into an ageist stereotyping and the media lecture here
there can be no comparison between manner of speech simply because FFX had voice acting! inflection is a powerful thing and cannot be surmised from text (never mind the clear differences between, for example, squall, selphie and zell)
actually we covered most of this in the other topic maybe you have been using GFs too much
what do you mean their beliefs and personalities are the same (short of ANTI-DESTRUCTION OF EXISTENCE i think even i am in line with most people on this) have you even played this game
all of the main characters were VASTLY different in terms of age, beliefs, personalities, manner of speech, background, etc etc.as per FFVIII:
age: this is rather the point though, they're all supposed to be late school age or a) the setting collapses and b) most of the story's subtext disintegrates. not that either varied or similar age really has much of an impact on characterisation of a group but i am not going to go into an ageist stereotyping and the media lecture here
there can be no comparison between manner of speech simply because FFX had voice acting! inflection is a powerful thing and cannot be surmised from text (never mind the clear differences between, for example, squall, selphie and zell)
actually we covered most of this in the other topic maybe you have been using GFs too much
what do you mean their beliefs and personalities are the same (short of ANTI-DESTRUCTION OF EXISTENCE i think even i am in line with most people on this) have you even played this game
Darken
3952
I was just in shock that geodude would love things shat out by bored squaresoft writers.
edit: also I read every single word soli said, kudos
edit: also I read every single word soli said, kudos
post=118359
i am going to say that i did not play overly long because it was slow, plodding and boring. this is preventing me from writing an essay at this time
Huh.
I thought FFX's first 20 minutes were some of the most exciting I've ever seen.
B)
So you get to tl;dr my thoughts and then complain that no one enjoyed the game because they're ignorant, miss things, and don't pay attention to anything, got it.
post=118361
Huh.
I thought FFX's first 20 minutes were some of the most exciting I've ever seen.
maybe this has something to do with why some people like action films and i like the ipcress file and the like. i'd like all these fancy explosions to mean something
post=118369post=118361maybe this has something to do with why some people like action films and i like the ipcress file and the like. i'd like all these fancy explosions to mean something
Huh.
I thought FFX's first 20 minutes were some of the most exciting I've ever seen.
Yeah I admit that I'm a sucker for fancy explosions and whatnot. But I also like things to 'mean something' as well (I AM NOT A PLEBE). But something doesn't have to have some deep contextual meaning to be good or enjoyable. Sometimes it 'is what it is'.
post=118377
...But something doesn't have to have some deep contextual meaning to be good or enjoyable. Sometimes it 'is what it is'.
I agree.
