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Too derivative for commercialization?
kentona- 05/16/2017 10:08 PM
- 11307 views
When I set out to make this game, I really did mean to take everything I enjoyed about RPGs I played as a kid and make my own game out of it.
Surprisingly (!), this has lead the game to be pretty derivative. Possibly, too derivative.
...and I really need some help in making it sound cool.
Indeed.
Here was my musings on what the game is about:
Hero's Realm is a conventional RPG wherein you control four parties of heroes concurrently to defeat an impending demonic cataclysm.
Hero's Realm is reminiscent of late NES and early SNES classics such as DQIII and IV, and Final Fantasy IV, V and VI, in terms of gameplay and aesthetic.
The coolest unique aspect of the game is the creation and playing of four parties of four playable characters simultaneously, where the player has the ability to toggle the active party as needed.
In a fantasy world in peril, you control four heroes and their parties as they traverse realm to prevent the incoming demonic devastation.
By toggling control of which party the player plays, a player can explore different areas of a dungeon simultaneously. In major boss battles, a different party can be subbed in to continue the fight, for example when one party nears death or a different skillset is needed.
A central facet of the game is preparation and management of their playable characters and their respective parties - the player gets to choose the classes of each of the four hero's three helpers from a pool of 12, and manage the equipment and skills of all four parties from a common resource pool of items and gold.
But what kind of return would a top down retro RPG with no hook or gimmick or witty title expect, honestly? I wasn't going to quit my dayjob for this, but as it turns out my dayjob is quitting on me, so... I may need this to be a moderate success in the short-term so that I don't go into to too great of debt.
(What if I changed the title to something witty? Like Heroic Heroes of Heroism? That might garner some attention. And the game is pretty tongue-in-cheek...)
I need some help (again) to come up with a pitch for the game. Something that I could put onto, say, a Steam gamepage that would actually entice people to check it out. I am struggling to write anything that isn't self-deprecating.
Surprisingly (!), this has lead the game to be pretty derivative. Possibly, too derivative.
...and I really need some help in making it sound cool.
Indeed.
Here was my musings on what the game is about:
Hero's Realm is a conventional RPG wherein you control four parties of heroes concurrently to defeat an impending demonic cataclysm.
Hero's Realm is reminiscent of late NES and early SNES classics such as DQIII and IV, and Final Fantasy IV, V and VI, in terms of gameplay and aesthetic.
The coolest unique aspect of the game is the creation and playing of four parties of four playable characters simultaneously, where the player has the ability to toggle the active party as needed.
In a fantasy world in peril, you control four heroes and their parties as they traverse realm to prevent the incoming demonic devastation.
By toggling control of which party the player plays, a player can explore different areas of a dungeon simultaneously. In major boss battles, a different party can be subbed in to continue the fight, for example when one party nears death or a different skillset is needed.
A central facet of the game is preparation and management of their playable characters and their respective parties - the player gets to choose the classes of each of the four hero's three helpers from a pool of 12, and manage the equipment and skills of all four parties from a common resource pool of items and gold.
But what kind of return would a top down retro RPG with no hook or gimmick or witty title expect, honestly? I wasn't going to quit my dayjob for this, but as it turns out my dayjob is quitting on me, so... I may need this to be a moderate success in the short-term so that I don't go into to too great of debt.
(What if I changed the title to something witty? Like Heroic Heroes of Heroism? That might garner some attention. And the game is pretty tongue-in-cheek...)
I need some help (again) to come up with a pitch for the game. Something that I could put onto, say, a Steam gamepage that would actually entice people to check it out. I am struggling to write anything that isn't self-deprecating.
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ClosePerhaps I can go into greater detail when I have more time, but mention the attention you got from the RPG crowd and use some quotes/awards/etc? I've seen plenty say "The greatest RPG Maker game I ever played" don't be afraid to quote. It'd make people intrigued. I'm no expert on this, but those are my two cents.
Hmm, well this is certainly a tough one. I guess I start off by being a bit honest, because it's the same type of issue I ran into with Brave Hero Yuusha. Because I don't think indie SNES-style JRPGs suffer so much from being derivative, as much as they do due to other factors that people aren't really talking about.
I feel like it's more that... these great JRPGs that we keep calling back to all happened so long ago; 20-30+ years ago now in fact, far beyond what a lot of younger people remember growing up with. Tastes are changing, kids and teenagers are growing up with different games than we did. The issue isn't that people are seeing that games as "derivative" more so now that they're seeing them as simple and ancient.
That being said...
Hero's Realm has a lot of fame going for it among RM games. 35,000 downloads is absolutely nothing to scoff at, and it was one of the most successful RM games pre-VXA. Put it out there; you might be surprised to see that people will come out and say "Wow, I remember Hero's Realm!" and even something as simple as that will get the buzz going. Quote what people have said about the game and market it as a fan-favorite. People are bound to have nostalgia for it and will be excited to spread the word. It helped Everlong, and it can certainly help you.
I feel like it's more that... these great JRPGs that we keep calling back to all happened so long ago; 20-30+ years ago now in fact, far beyond what a lot of younger people remember growing up with. Tastes are changing, kids and teenagers are growing up with different games than we did. The issue isn't that people are seeing that games as "derivative" more so now that they're seeing them as simple and ancient.
That being said...
Hero's Realm has a lot of fame going for it among RM games. 35,000 downloads is absolutely nothing to scoff at, and it was one of the most successful RM games pre-VXA. Put it out there; you might be surprised to see that people will come out and say "Wow, I remember Hero's Realm!" and even something as simple as that will get the buzz going. Quote what people have said about the game and market it as a fan-favorite. People are bound to have nostalgia for it and will be excited to spread the word. It helped Everlong, and it can certainly help you.
Nostalgia isn't too derivative for commercialization. In fact, with a game like this, the more "derivative", the better. Nostalgia sells, as long as nostalgia is the main point.
Frankly, that comment, "I really did mean to take everything I enjoyed about RPGs I played as a kid and make my own game out of it," is something that would make me buy. In fact, I'd specifically put that in promotion.
Frankly, that comment, "I really did mean to take everything I enjoyed about RPGs I played as a kid and make my own game out of it," is something that would make me buy. In fact, I'd specifically put that in promotion.
Maybe go sell some maps in rpg maker, $20 a map haha.
Honestly there's a reason your game has been so well received in the first place. It's just a good game & throwback to the classics of old in a slightly updated way, think Shovel Knight.
Sucks about the job though man.
Honestly there's a reason your game has been so well received in the first place. It's just a good game & throwback to the classics of old in a slightly updated way, think Shovel Knight.
Sucks about the job though man.
Housekeeping
3571
What would you define, sales-wise, as a success? I think that you can extrapolate your RMN success to Steam for your bottom line, but you might be better off asking the Shadows of Adam guys, Badluck, or maybe Harmonic about that. Shit, talk to all three--I'm sure they respect you enough to share sales figures in private. Speaking of Harmonic, since this game is so tied to RPG Maker, maybe you could contact Degica and get some promotional assistance from them like Skyborn.
To be blunt, I don't think Hero's Realm has the potential to break through to the mainstream because of how derivative it is, but I do think that it has the potential to make a decent amount of scratch with RPG enthusiasts, mostly from this community and people tangentially related to this community. Piano's right: you'd need to play up the nostalgia angle to reach them. If you'd want to hit a bigger audience, you'd need to differentiate the game more mechanically from Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy, but I would think of this game as a stepping stone. You can probably make enough money from this to keep you going, either until you find another job, or, if you're lucky, it could give you a few years to develop the next one.
Also, to clarify: I think that derivative games can still break through, but they need to have something else. Stardew Valley, for instance, is just Harvest Moon except the developer stuffed it to the gills with features. I saw a FF5-inspired game on Twitter for a while that just had a BUNCH of classes, and that definitely made me want to play. Being able to market off nostalgia + a gimmick is kind of a winning strategy.
To be blunt, I don't think Hero's Realm has the potential to break through to the mainstream because of how derivative it is, but I do think that it has the potential to make a decent amount of scratch with RPG enthusiasts, mostly from this community and people tangentially related to this community. Piano's right: you'd need to play up the nostalgia angle to reach them. If you'd want to hit a bigger audience, you'd need to differentiate the game more mechanically from Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy, but I would think of this game as a stepping stone. You can probably make enough money from this to keep you going, either until you find another job, or, if you're lucky, it could give you a few years to develop the next one.
Also, to clarify: I think that derivative games can still break through, but they need to have something else. Stardew Valley, for instance, is just Harvest Moon except the developer stuffed it to the gills with features. I saw a FF5-inspired game on Twitter for a while that just had a BUNCH of classes, and that definitely made me want to play. Being able to market off nostalgia + a gimmick is kind of a winning strategy.
author=Sgt
I feel like it's more that... these great JRPGs that we keep calling back to all happened so long ago; 20-30+ years ago now in fact, far beyond what a lot of younger people remember growing up with. Tastes are changing, kids and teenagers are growing up with different games than we did. The issue isn't that people are seeing that games as "derivative" more so now that they're seeing them as simple and ancient.
I don't know man, while this isn't incorrect with a lot of audiences, it may be for others; the nostalgia argument doesn't so much apply to me since I've only played many 'classic' RPGs AND modern ones all as an adult at the same time; while some classic RPGs are dated in some ways, I think I can say with a clear head and no bias that I think many classic RPGs are fundamentally superior to many modern ones in a lot of ways. Not in every way, but a lot of ways.
I'd give a lot to see RPGs go back to the design principles of SNES and PS1 days. While JRPGs are making a good come up now, there was a long period of time in the time between the PS1/PS2 era and like, last year, where a lot of JRPGs were wack as fuck. Give me an RPG that polishes the classic formula over some shit like Star Ocean 4 any day of the week, dude.
Also keep in mind your audience; you don't have to market to kids and teenagers. There's plenty of adults who would still enjoy a good classic RPG.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=zDS
Perhaps I can go into greater detail when I have more time, but mention the attention you got from the RPG crowd and use some quotes/awards/etc? I've seen plenty say "The greatest RPG Maker game I ever played" don't be afraid to quote. It'd make people intrigued. I'm no expert on this, but those are my two cents.
Quotes will only hold weight if they are from someone recognizable. The word of a guy who created an account just to post "this is the greatest RPG maker game I have ever played" probably won't generate as much interest as, say, a quote from Rock, Paper, Shotgun.
Regarding Nostalgia, I agree with Housekeeping that the game needs to have something else. Bravely Default is just Final Fantasy but with the Brave/Default mechanic added. The core mechanic of controlling simultaneous parties on such a scale as HR's is not something I can remember ever seeing. Usually, parties split during certain moments in the story, or the player changes control over multiple parties at set intervals. If it were me, I would definitely include this in my pitch.
Regarding the title change, I'd recommend adding a subtitle rather than changing it. Hero's Realm: *insert hero joke* tells fans that this is an enhanced edition of the HR they enjoyed a while ago.
Thanks guys! This is all really helpful advice.
Also, I am going through BadLuck to get this game published, so I know a little of what to expect, compensation-wise. What I wanted to stress that the compensation from this game went from pure gravy to "might need to subsist on this for a few months", and feel a greater need for it to be a Ara Fell level of success. I am not shooting To The Moon.
How I can word the multi-party thing in a marketable way (other than, 'Hey remember those dungeons in FF6? Like that, but for like 2/3rds of the game')
Also, I am going through BadLuck to get this game published, so I know a little of what to expect, compensation-wise. What I wanted to stress that the compensation from this game went from pure gravy to "might need to subsist on this for a few months", and feel a greater need for it to be a Ara Fell level of success. I am not shooting To The Moon.
How I can word the multi-party thing in a marketable way (other than, 'Hey remember those dungeons in FF6? Like that, but for like 2/3rds of the game')
LordBlueRouge
2143
author=pianotm
Frankly, that comment, "I really did mean to take everything I enjoyed about RPGs I played as a kid and make my own game out of it," is something that would make me buy. In fact, I'd specifically put that in promotion.
Play up on this^
Avoid saying stuff like "inspired by rpgs like chrono trigger", because people are going to take one look at it and know it's not the game it's inspired off of - (this is the same reason why I didn't buy Zeboyd's, "Cthulhu Savves the World" or "Breath of Death VII" - I love Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy; but these games don't look or play the part.)
Also avoid using Nostalgia as a gimmick, because once people hear what it is, they're going to know it's not for them.
Take the Alternative route, say something like :
"authentically recreates some of the best SNES RPGS of the 90s and the 16-bit era." just something that refers, to it's rich heritage, but make it enticing.
Look at how Lucas Arts, resold Monkey Island: 2 Special Edition.
Think about how the industry advertises old films. When Cineplex was advertising their showing of Alfred Hitchcock's Rear View Window, they never said it was "old" all they did was refer to it's history and how it built upon the thriller genre - that this was a movie that you HAD to see.
So yeah, just mention stuff that focuses on Hero's Realm's heritage.
I think during the Shinan interview done years ago, around the 7:00 - 9:00 mark, it's mentioned that Hero's Realm:
-Started out as a simple pen and paper RPG.
-Finished during dayjob, While also managing a kid! (people are going to love that, because It sounds similar to how Daisuke Amaya finished Cave Story over the course of 5 years while working at his day job)
There's a story there that's humbling and incredibly endearing.
But also mention stuff like:
Hero's Realm was mentioned on Neo-Gaf.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=505570 "OldSchool to the Bone!" - NeoGaf
Hero's Realm is so good, someone tried to steal it:
https://rpgmaker.net/games/82/blog/10740/
Hero's Realm was featured in hyper magazine:
https://rpgmaker.net/games/82/blog/3206/
Hero's Realm is featured in numerous youtube rpgmaker top ten lists.
Focus on it's Download History:
https://rpgmaker.net/games/82/blog/1656/
Focus on it's Distribution:
https://rpgmaker.net/games/82/distribution/
(Focus on how it mysteriously showed up on softwarepedia that one time - because an annoymous fan thought it was so good, the rest of the world should see it)
https://rpgmaker.net/games/82/blog/1279/
Focus on it's Customization.
The Classes
The Medals
The Numerous Quests.
Part of the reason why most of us have turned to rpgmaker is because, we want more of the games that we love. Focus on that, focus on how much content there is in this game. That unlike games we grew up with, Hero's Realm is an RPG that never ends.
Like, this is not just some random kick-starter rpgmaker game.
Hero's Realm is an RPGMaker Game with a lot of history in the rpgmaker community. This is a story about how one Canadian guy, loved RPGs so much, that in-between his dayjob and taking his kid to hockey practice, he was able to create one with rpgmaker.(...and manage an rpgmaker community as well!) - This is how you should sell Hero's Realm.
People fell in love with that, because they can identify with that - like, you grow up, get a job and start a family, but in-between all that, you just long for the days, where you can just play video games again. Like, you've been doing this for years Kentona, this should be easy.
Advertise it in such a way that people will see this an an opportunity to finally give back to you, for not only making such a great game, but for also investing so much in the rpgmaker community for years - so that people who don't know about Hero's Realm will want to know about it.
Like, If you've ever seen the movie: The King of Kong: Fistful of Quarters, you're kind of like, the Steve Wiebe of RPGMaker:
You're a Canadian indie game developer whose actually a pretty okay guy, just doing what he loves.
Focus on that, because people are gonna want to know all that stuff when buying Hero's Realm - it's not just another retro-16bit-jrpg that's desperately trying to cash in on nostalgia for a kickstarter that will never deliver.
It's a finished rpgmaker game that comes from a place with a lot of heart.
EDIT: (...Maybe even throw in DLC, where after completing the game, you show a picture of you and your son at hockey practice in RPGMAKER or even a video of him scoring the winning goal. And then on New Game+ all the classes/armor change to resemble NHL hockey jerseys?...I dunno)
- Adventure with 4 different parties that you can switch between anytime, even in boss battles!
- Play as 4 powerful Heroes throughout a five chapter story, each with their own akillset & battle commands!
- Customize your heroes' party by selecting from 21 unique character classes split between the mage, warrior, and rogue specialties, including unlockable "master" classes!
Not sure if these are good bullet points That sell HR unique features, but I tried :p
For what's it's worth, I think making the game menu look custom goes a long way; I've been around on steam, and the player base gets omni-pissed when they see RTP Menus. Also, advertise gameplay time, rpg fanatics love games they can dig their teeth into.
But honestly, I'm thinkin your game might sell itself considering these games' features are reminiscent of yours:
Gameplay wise:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/318130/Doom__Destiny/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/266230/Last_Dream/
Story/Humor wise:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/107310/Cthulhu_Saves_the_World/
And these are seemingly pretty successful.
EDIT:damn, lordbluerogue ninja'd me, and he has a better post... :(
author=kalledemosNot sure if these are good bullet points That sell HR unique features, but I tried :p
- Adventure with 4 different parties that you can switch between anytime, even in boss battles!
- Play as 4 powerful Heroes throughout a five chapter story, each with their own akillset & battle commands!
- Customize your heroes' party by selecting from 21 unique character classes split between the mage, warrior, and rogue specialties, including unlockable "master" classes!
For what's it's worth, I think making the game menu look custom goes a long way; I've been around on steam, and the player base gets omni-pissed when they see RTP Menus. Also, advertise gameplay time, rpg fanatics love games they can dig their teeth into.
But honestly, I'm thinkin your game might sell itself considering these games' features are reminiscent of yours:
Gameplay wise:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/318130/Doom__Destiny/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/266230/Last_Dream/
Story/Humor wise:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/107310/Cthulhu_Saves_the_World/
And these are seemingly pretty successful.
EDIT:damn, lordbluerogue ninja'd me, and he has a better post... :(
You do want the points to be true, and you don't get to switch between the parties until the fifth chapter so the first point is a little misleading and might upset some people, even if they enjoy the rest of the game. People can be picky bastards.
- Use the party-switch ability at certain parts of the story to change your party and explore more of the world.
OR
- Using the party-switch ability you can explore as any party at certain parts of the story.
OR
- The ability to switch hero parties at set points in the story allows for a fuller, more customised exploration of the world.
OR
- During set points of the story you can choose which party to switch to in order to experience more of the world.
- Take part in four-party battles, where every character has a chance to shine.
Just a few ideas.
Oh, yeah, a custom menu would help a lot to differentiate the game from other RM titles. It's one thing that people who put their games up on steam always ignore and it makes a big difference to the perception of a game. You could even add a party-switch option there if you wanted to (though I think the button-press is good enough on its own).
But hey, we'll help out with this as much as we can. We all wanna see you succeed in this endeavour. ^.^
I think that the people who would be most likely to buy an enhanced version of this game would, in a certain sense, be similar as a group to people who play fangames. They have played some or many of the originals this game was inspired by and enjoyed that, but now they are out of new content and still want more. That's where you come in to provide.
Somehow, you'll have to convince potential players that it's worth their time and money to play Hero's Realm instead of just replaying the games it is based on, or any of the other hundreds of old-school RPGs out there. So I'd suggest emphasising that you have something new to offer to those people who find themselves craving for more content of this type, yet you should also focus on pointing out what qualities your game has that others don't. You'll want to noticably stand in the tradition of the games your target audience likes, but not make it seem like you're just trying to sell them a carbon copy of something they've already experienced either.
If you can convince your potential customers that Hero's Realm is the type of game they enjoy playing, but is still unique and fresh in terms of explorable content, you should be good to go.
Somehow, you'll have to convince potential players that it's worth their time and money to play Hero's Realm instead of just replaying the games it is based on, or any of the other hundreds of old-school RPGs out there. So I'd suggest emphasising that you have something new to offer to those people who find themselves craving for more content of this type, yet you should also focus on pointing out what qualities your game has that others don't. You'll want to noticably stand in the tradition of the games your target audience likes, but not make it seem like you're just trying to sell them a carbon copy of something they've already experienced either.
If you can convince your potential customers that Hero's Realm is the type of game they enjoy playing, but is still unique and fresh in terms of explorable content, you should be good to go.
Housekeeping
3571
author=kentona
How I can word the multi-party thing in a marketable way (other than, 'Hey remember those dungeons in FF6? Like that, but for like 2/3rds of the game')
I would consider your promo focusing on the fact that the world is being threatened at first. So, there's some inherent drama there. Then the ad brings up the question about who will step up, and then you see a volunteer, then another, then another, and this exponentially increases. Seeing all of the npc heroes was a memorable part of the game, so I would focus on that. This would let you segue into the fact that you're controlling FOUR separate parties led by FOUR separate heroes. The promo video's going to be more important than the tag line, but if you want a tag line, you could say something like, "One villain. A world of heroes."
Definitely plug the game length and size of the world map - amount of playable hours is always something I check for, and in this case it being at least 60(at least for me) hours would be a huge plus when sifting through games. Also I would mention that the game has a great skill curve - nothing more disappointing than an rpg where you start the game one shotting everything while they hit you for 5% of your health. When I see higher difficulty or an option for it it really piques my interest.
I would also probably emphasize any custom graphics you may have, because I also sift for generic looking RTP in games. and maybe throw in a few pics of those sexy character stat graphs, I always enjoyed looking at those ;D
I would also probably emphasize any custom graphics you may have, because I also sift for generic looking RTP in games. and maybe throw in a few pics of those sexy character stat graphs, I always enjoyed looking at those ;D
60 hours? wow. I am not sure I've played it that long. (I've pegged the game to be in the 20 - 30 hour range)
The current plan is to replace the RTP with custom music and pixel graphics (though work still hasn't started on this because its not ready for that yet) (though I haven't looked into how to go about getting new sound effects yet, either).
I am going to use "One villain. A world of heroes." I like it a lot. I am also counting on BadLuck having someone skilled at making promo videos (oddly, when I check out a game on Steam it goes Name > Screenshots > Description > Reviews > Video, in that order. I never have my sound on and I don't trust the videos as much as I do in-game shots and people's opinions)
Right now the game project is labeled Hero's Realm DX (for deluxe!), but I haven't discussed what the final name ought to be with BadLuck yet. Hero's Realm: Heroic Edition, maybe?
I hadn't considered making a custom menu. Remember this is RM2k3, and that would mean doing it using images. Which I can do, of course, but ugh. I'll think about it.
PS. Thank you all for causing HR to be RMN's #1 buzzing game.
The current plan is to replace the RTP with custom music and pixel graphics (though work still hasn't started on this because its not ready for that yet) (though I haven't looked into how to go about getting new sound effects yet, either).
I am going to use "One villain. A world of heroes." I like it a lot. I am also counting on BadLuck having someone skilled at making promo videos (oddly, when I check out a game on Steam it goes Name > Screenshots > Description > Reviews > Video, in that order. I never have my sound on and I don't trust the videos as much as I do in-game shots and people's opinions)
Right now the game project is labeled Hero's Realm DX (for deluxe!), but I haven't discussed what the final name ought to be with BadLuck yet. Hero's Realm: Heroic Edition, maybe?
I hadn't considered making a custom menu. Remember this is RM2k3, and that would mean doing it using images. Which I can do, of course, but ugh. I'll think about it.
PS. Thank you all for causing HR to be RMN's #1 buzzing game.
Hero's Realm: Class Warfare! ;P
also yeah my time may have been greatly inflated by my dicking around a bunch lol.
also yeah my time may have been greatly inflated by my dicking around a bunch lol.
author=coolopotomusWar Warriors: War of Warfare
Hero's Realm: Class Warfare! ;P
also yeah my time may have been greatly inflated by my dicking around a bunch lol.
author=InfectionFilesI, too, cannot count to 60.
"A game you can dick around in for countless hours"
Housekeeping
3571
I like the intentional redundancy of "Hero's Realm: Heroic Edition."
Also, I'll accept a Top Gun High Five as payment for being a marketing consultant should we ever meet.
Also, I'll accept a Top Gun High Five as payment for being a marketing consultant should we ever meet.
