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EdgeOfChaos
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The Disco Demolition article I have been reading intermittently for the past couple hours just finished completely discrediting itself in my eyes by casually referring to a smear piece composed entirely of bullshit and lies written on people in MY Gaming Industry (tabletop) as though it was somehow unquestioned fact and not thoroughly, thoroughly debunked and disproved.
Edit:
Please explain. Whoever made what video? The one you linked after this text? That video wasn't really anonymous? How did anonymous "deal with" this "whoever"?
Edit:
in unrelated news, apparently Anonymous has come back into the light, if only for a bit, over that @opgamergate stuff
basically, they came out to deal with whoever made this video, apparently
Please explain. Whoever made what video? The one you linked after this text? That video wasn't really anonymous? How did anonymous "deal with" this "whoever"?
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=TehGuy
Possibly the moderates with large followings turning some of the admittedly tinfoil stuff into something easier to swallow (I guess you could term it "red pilling" like in the Matrix)
I was just in the bathroom thinking this whole situation over and a quote from the Matrix came to me:
"We don't know who struck first, us or them. But we do know it was us that scorched the sky."
If people are hellbent on taking this to extremes until something comes of it, I'm afraid this is ultimately where we're headed, assuming we're not already there:
Spoiler alert: GamerGate is the South.
The only differences being that both genders are on the battlefront now and we are fighting with the pen instead of the sword. Our passion made us one, but our beliefs threaten to tear us asunder. "With no love of God or human rights"...
/thread
please
/thread
please
Believe me, as a child of a horribly messy divorce, I completely understand your desire for mommy and daddy to stop screaming at and hitting each other in the kitchen.
Here's the reason why not /thread. The scary thing about this culture war is that I have legitimately reached the point where I am more afraid of what MIGHT happen to the greater culture if I and others do nothing than what could happen to me personally if I get involved.
This threat, right here. (yes, I am aware people on the "GamerGate" side made more and worse threats. can you guess why I might say that's not the point?)
The class of people being referred to by this threat actually describes me. Not whatever I do on RMN as a hobbyist, but in the capacity of the work I do for my "day job" as a TTRPG creator and publisher. I make games for a living. They don't involve pixels, but that statement is still true.
A lot of the industry I work in is aggressively PC and very groupthink and really full of Social Justice Warriors. People who could actually blacklist me and ruin my career with their influence over certain circles if I get involved in this and become an activist and most importantly DARE TO PUBLICLY DISAGREE WITH THEM. I have seen it fucking happen.
But I am becoming less afraid of that and more afraid of what will happen to the culture at large if all those who disagree and have something to lose, like me, are intimidated into silence.
For the record, I would not say I actually support GamerGate. I just oppose many of the most vocal people who are against it.
author=GreatRedSpirit
Dry british humor. Aquagate.
After 9 pages of not posting to this thread I find myself posting entirely too much on pages 10 or 11. I'm going to try to take a vacation.
author=Max McGee-Nude images of game developer Zoe Quinn were distributed across the internet in an attempt to "punish" her for something.
Nude images of game developer Zoe Quinn were distributed across the internet BECAUSE SHE CONSENTED TO HAVE NUDE PHOTOS TAKEN OF HER AND PUT ON THE BLEEPING INTERNET. If you don't want nude photos of you on the internet, you know...don't do that.
This is just wrong. You should stop thinking things like this. Forever.
But it should be noted that Zoe Quinn as a human being is basically the raddest person ever......is the wrongest statement made in the HISTORY of EVER. She really, really, really,really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really, really ISN'T. Some, such as myself, might argue that her jilted and cuckolded ex is obviously a biased source, but it's the unedited chat logs that paint her in a far worse light than any of his words.
I have zero doubt, absolutely none whatsoever, that anyone who knew either you or myself sufficiently well could paint a 100% factual portrayal that could make either of us look like the most disgusting, hideously vile creature that has ever walked the earth. Everyone has done things that could be considered hideously wrong or bad without mitigating circumstances. There's probably very few people who couldn't be made to look awful if presented in the right light.
This shouldn't be viewed as an explicit denial of any of the things said about Quinn because there's no way in hell I'm actually reading that.
And actually, the link you posted of her gloating about her spying (neither of which is bragworthy on its own) and then threatening legal consequences doesn't paint her much better.
Yes, how dare someone threaten legal action over being sent death threats, threats of violence, rape threats, threatening or offensive phone calls to her family members, release of her personal information, etc. Whatever is the world coming to?
By the way, if by your own logic the fact that nude photos of her exist means they're free game, then an IRC chat she can get into is also free game. If you don't want people to eavesdrop on you having a conversation about harassing and threatening someone on the internet...
You know...
don't do that.
It really has risen far above Zoe Quinn and her personal life. It has uncovered two sides of a huge cultural war. It is really quite sad how one side does not see how it censors, intimidates, and silences the opposition. And also gets away with massive bigotry and stereotyping toward gamers.
So, as to whether or not I "support gamergate" I really don't care about what it used to be, the Zoe Quinn thing (apparently proved untrue) is inconsequential compared to the vitriol that it has inspired. It's now about professional victims versus those they perceive to be their enemies, even though they... probably aren't that ideologically opposed. But anything short of rampant white-knighting earns one the label of sexist hater whose career should be crushed.
We shouldn't have to qualify everything we say. I shouldn't have to start every post with "I do not condone rape. I do not condone harassment of women." But that's sort of where the gaming industry is heading.
So, as to whether or not I "support gamergate" I really don't care about what it used to be, the Zoe Quinn thing (apparently proved untrue) is inconsequential compared to the vitriol that it has inspired. It's now about professional victims versus those they perceive to be their enemies, even though they... probably aren't that ideologically opposed. But anything short of rampant white-knighting earns one the label of sexist hater whose career should be crushed.
We shouldn't have to qualify everything we say. I shouldn't have to start every post with "I do not condone rape. I do not condone harassment of women." But that's sort of where the gaming industry is heading.
Nobody is perfect. I have said some truly horrible things in my life to people, and some of those things are floating around the internet. If you don't know the girl, how on Earth can you justify ever judging her from what happens in a single blog? Posting blogs of her evil ways is not a reflection of her character, it's a reflection of yours. I learned this the hard way. When you do this, you are the villain.
But don't listen to me. I'm just a 30-something crazy fellow conjuring spirits in his basement and reading 2000-year-old religious manuscripts. But then again, that applies to any priest of any path. Part of this is understanding the nature of what it means to be human. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Don't tell me how awful Zoe Quinn is. The plain fact is that you're no better.
That applies to all of us.
But don't listen to me. I'm just a 30-something crazy fellow conjuring spirits in his basement and reading 2000-year-old religious manuscripts. But then again, that applies to any priest of any path. Part of this is understanding the nature of what it means to be human. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Don't tell me how awful Zoe Quinn is. The plain fact is that you're no better.
That applies to all of us.
author=pianotm
Nobody is perfect. I have said some truly horrible things in my life to people, and some of those things are floating around the internet. If you don't know the girl, how on Earth can you justify ever judging her from what happens in a single blog? Posting blogs of her evil ways is not a reflection of her character, it's a reflection of yours. I learned this the hard way. When you do this, you are the villain.
But don't listen to me. I'm just a 30-something crazy fellow conjuring spirits in his basement and reading 2000-year-old religious manuscripts. But then again, that applies to any priest of any path. Part of this is understanding the nature of what it means to be human. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Don't tell me how awful Zoe Quinn is. The plain fact is that you're no better.
That applies to all of us.
I don't wish to knock what you're saying here, but I do have to ask you this; would you literally hold anyone and everyone to this without any exception? Even Zoe herself?
Edit: before this gets looked at the wrong way, I only ask because if im interpreting this right, this statement, in a way, is taking a big dump on a lot of people, probably myself included. And you know what? I'm not offended in the slightest.
author=Zeigfried_McBaconauthor=pianotmI don't wish to knock what you're saying here, but I do have to ask you this; would you literally hold anyone and everyone to this without any exception? Even Zoe herself?
Nobody is perfect. I have said some truly horrible things in my life to people, and some of those things are floating around the internet. If you don't know the girl, how on Earth can you justify ever judging her from what happens in a single blog? Posting blogs of her evil ways is not a reflection of her character, it's a reflection of yours. I learned this the hard way. When you do this, you are the villain.
But don't listen to me. I'm just a 30-something crazy fellow conjuring spirits in his basement and reading 2000-year-old religious manuscripts. But then again, that applies to any priest of any path. Part of this is understanding the nature of what it means to be human. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Don't tell me how awful Zoe Quinn is. The plain fact is that you're no better.
That applies to all of us.
I don't "hold" anyone to anything. There are evil, dark things in all of us. She's just as human as anyone, and so are you. Everyone has room to grow. I can show you some of my hate-fueled rants. I can show you the email threats I've sent to people. I won't be baited. Post your "evidence". It means nothing to me. It's just more of the same, and I'm sure she has done some mean, nasty things. I've seen it before. It's always on the news. We all have. If it bleeds, it leads. I haven't found anyone on this board that I dislike. I haven't found anyone on this board that I find disrespectful, so please don't act like it. Everybody's human. It's time we all stopped acting like this. It's demeaning to everyone. We're all trying to put up a meaningful debate, but we're now posting links and explaining why the person in that link is a horrible person. That's toxic, whether you believe it is, or not.
Congratulations, people. We've successfully brought GamerGate to RMN.
1. Feminists were not and are not going to take your games away. They're not gonna stop making Call of Duty or Final Fantasy XV because we have Depression Quest and Gone Home now. In contrast to Jack Thompson, people like Anita Sarkeesian aren't demanding government-censored games. Anita's videos on games, at their worst, just point out that video games suffer from the same sexist cliches that movies, books, and TV have had for years.
2. Speaking of Jack Thompson, do people really believe that video games - or any media - doesn't affect culture and the way we as humans think? Isn't that part of the reason we're making things at all - to communicate with others? To say that a video game can't reinforce sexism is ludicrous. If Nineteen Eighty-Four can get you to question your government, if Guernica can get you to think of war, then a video game can inspire hatred. Enough hatred to shoot up your school? Pretty unlikely - we've been taught by our parents that killing is (usually) wrong. But enough to teach us untrue stereotypes about men and women? Stereotypes we've probably already picked up on from our family and friends? Yea, I think that's pretty likely. We learn from the media we consume, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying a TV show or a game that has flaws (they all do), but it's good to be aware of those flaws and consider them - and this goes double for us as creators.
I'm sitting here trying to imagine how people can think that humans aren't influenced by media. Go talk to someone who follows one partisan news source religiously and see what their politics are. Go read up on how De Beers' advertising convinced an entire planet that the rock known as a diamond was even remotely valuable.
This isn't the first time subjects like this have been discussed here, and it won't be the last. It's pretty relevant to our craft, y'know!
2. Speaking of Jack Thompson, do people really believe that video games - or any media - doesn't affect culture and the way we as humans think? Isn't that part of the reason we're making things at all - to communicate with others? To say that a video game can't reinforce sexism is ludicrous. If Nineteen Eighty-Four can get you to question your government, if Guernica can get you to think of war, then a video game can inspire hatred. Enough hatred to shoot up your school? Pretty unlikely - we've been taught by our parents that killing is (usually) wrong. But enough to teach us untrue stereotypes about men and women? Stereotypes we've probably already picked up on from our family and friends? Yea, I think that's pretty likely. We learn from the media we consume, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying a TV show or a game that has flaws (they all do), but it's good to be aware of those flaws and consider them - and this goes double for us as creators.
I'm sitting here trying to imagine how people can think that humans aren't influenced by media. Go talk to someone who follows one partisan news source religiously and see what their politics are. Go read up on how De Beers' advertising convinced an entire planet that the rock known as a diamond was even remotely valuable.
author=pianotm
Congratulations, people. We've successfully brought GamerGate to RMN.
This isn't the first time subjects like this have been discussed here, and it won't be the last. It's pretty relevant to our craft, y'know!
author=pianotmNo beef at all man and I don't wanna drag up your past anymore than my own frankly.
I don't "hold" anyone to anything. There are evil, dark things in all of us. She's just as human as anyone, and so are you. Everyone has room to grow. I can show you some of my hate-fueled rants. I can show you the email threats I've sent to people. I won't be baited. Post your "evidence". It means nothing to me. It's just more of the same, and I'm sure she has done some mean, nasty things. I've seen it before. It's always on the news. We all have. If it bleeds, it leads. I haven't found anyone on this board that I dislike. I haven't found anyone on this board that I find disrespectful, so please don't act like it. Everybody's human. It's time we all stopped acting like this. It's demeaning to everyone. We're all trying to put up a meaningful debate, but we're now posting links and explaining why the person in that link is a horrible person. That's toxic, whether you believe it is, or not.
Congratulations, people. We've successfully brought GamerGate to RMN.
Edit:
author=slashphoenix
1. Feminists were not and are not going to take your games away. They're not gonna stop making Call of Duty or Final Fantasy XV because we have Depression Quest and Gone Home now. In contrast to Jack Thompson, people like Anita Sarkeesian aren't demanding government-censored games. Anita's videos on games, at their worst, just point out that video games suffer from the same sexist cliches that movies, books, and TV have had for years.
2. Speaking of Jack Thompson, do people really believe that video games - or any media - doesn't affect culture and the way we as humans think? Isn't that part of the reason we're making things at all - to communicate with others? To say that a video game can't reinforce sexism is ludicrous. If Nineteen Eighty-Four can get you to question your government, if Guernica can get you to think of war, then a video game can inspire hatred. Enough hatred to shoot up your school? Pretty unlikely - we've been taught by our parents that killing is (usually) wrong. But enough to teach us untrue stereotypes about men and women? Stereotypes we've probably already picked up on from our family and friends? Yea, I think that's pretty likely. We learn from the media we consume, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying a TV show or a game that has flaws (they all do), but it's good to be aware of those flaws and consider them - and this goes double for us as creators.
I'm sitting here trying to imagine how people can think that humans aren't influenced by media. Go talk to someone who follows one partisan news source religiously and see what their politics are. Go read up on how De Beers' advertising convinced an entire planet that the rock known as a diamond was even remotely valuable.author=pianotm
Congratulations, people. We've successfully brought GamerGate to RMN.
This isn't the first time subjects like this have been discussed here, and it won't be the last. It's pretty relevant to our craft, y'know!
A civil discussion is key here, and threats are obviously not productive. Bringing fresh ideas to the table is GOOD. It is important that we not forget the importance of scrutiny when it comes to these ideas, regardless of its age and who said it. Only then can there be any hope of progress.
author=SolitayreOn the flip-side, it's very easy to paint an overly positive portrayal if presented in the right light. If her "involvement" with The Fine Young Capitalists is true, I'd certainly hesitate to call her "the raddest person ever".
I have zero doubt, absolutely none whatsoever, that anyone who knew either you or myself sufficiently well could paint a 100% factual portrayal that could make either of us look like the most disgusting, hideously vile creature that has ever walked the earth. Everyone has done things that could be considered hideously wrong or bad without mitigating circumstances. There's probably very few people who couldn't be made to look awful if presented in the right light.
I don't like any of these people to be honest. Except Anita Sarkeesian, anyway. Extraordinary how calm she is in her videos. Phil Fish is the worst. He's like the epitome of white male guilt.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Max McGee/threadBelieve me, as a child of a horribly messy divorce, I completely understand your desire for mommy and daddy to stop screaming at and hitting each other in the kitchen.
please
Your opinion is no more worthy than anyone else's here. We've had 11 pages of the same back and forth. The points have been made and there's no reason to continue.
Also, fuck you and your condescension.
author=Max McGee
This threat, right here.(yes, I am aware people on the "GamerGate" side made more and worse threats. can you guess why I might say that's not the point?)
The class of people being referred to by this threat actually describes me. Not whatever I do on RMN as a hobbyist, but in the capacity of the work I do for my "day job" as a TTRPG creator and publisher. I make games for a living. They don't involve pixels, but that statement is still true.
A lot of the industry I work in is aggressively PC and very groupthink and really full of Social Justice Warriors. People who could actually blacklist me and ruin my career with their influence over certain circles if I get involved in this and become an activist and most importantly DARE TO PUBLICLY DISAGREE WITH THEM. I have seen it fucking happen.
But I am becoming less afraid of that and more afraid of what will happen to the culture at large if all those who disagree and have something to lose, like me, are intimidated into silence.
How many times do I have to explain this in this thread? What is referenced here is not a "I'll fucking end you!" threat. This is a call to those who are venomous to take a step back before you do or say something that will hurt your business in the future. Do you realize how hard it is to shake a damning reputation? Anonymity is scarce at best; you can't hide behind your MMO avatar anymore.
To think making social progress is something to be feared...
author=harmonic
And also gets away with massive bigotry and stereotyping toward gamers.
Bigotry towards gamers? Are you out of your mind? Give your victim complex a rest.
author=Corfaisus
Bigotry towards gamers? Are you out of your mind? Give your victim complex a rest.
Aaaaand we've devolved into ad-hominem.
Nope, not out of my mind. I am referring to:
All gamers are White basement dwellers.
This article.
And this article.
And this article.
Rabbit hole goes way deeper than just those 4.
nurvuss
958
#notallgamers , right?
Not to mention uh, her personal life has absolutely nothing to do with her creative output. None of our business, not a valid argument.
If it was the other way around--if Zoe Quinn was a man, whose spurned ex-girlfriend wrote a blog post shaming him--I'm 100% certain she'd be called a crazy bitch and receive hundreds of death threats.
I have zero doubt, absolutely none whatsoever, that anyone who knew either you or myself sufficiently well could paint a 100% factual portrayal that could make either of us look like the most disgusting, hideously vile creature that has ever walked the earth. Everyone has done things that could be considered hideously wrong or bad without mitigating circumstances. There's probably very few people who couldn't be made to look awful if presented in the right light.But it should be noted that Zoe Quinn as a human being is basically the raddest person ever......is the wrongest statement made in the HISTORY of EVER. She really, really, really,really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really, really ISN'T. Some, such as myself, might argue that her jilted and cuckolded ex is obviously a biased source, but it's the unedited chat logs that paint her in a far worse light than any of his words.
This shouldn't be viewed as an explicit denial of any of the things said about Quinn because there's no way in hell I'm actually reading that.
Not to mention uh, her personal life has absolutely nothing to do with her creative output. None of our business, not a valid argument.
If it was the other way around--if Zoe Quinn was a man, whose spurned ex-girlfriend wrote a blog post shaming him--I'm 100% certain she'd be called a crazy bitch and receive hundreds of death threats.
author=Yellow Magic
On the flip-side, it's very easy to paint an overly positive portrayal if presented in the right light. If her "involvement" with The Fine Young Capitalists is true, I'd certainly hesitate to call her "the raddest person ever".
My understanding of her involvement with TFYC is disagreeing with them and their ideals on Twitter. You could say maybe she should give them more benefit of the doubt or been more supportive, sure, you can have that opinion, sure. But I am certainly not aware of her making any threats that anybody should get hurt.
What bothers me (and I'm not saying YM is guilty of this) is this whole "Well, Zoe Quinn did hblblblbl" comes dangerous close to saying "she deserved it." "She had it coming." "She's a bad person and got what she deserved."
I'd like to think that we as a society should all be able to come together and say "Women should never be getting rape/death threats for any reason." Are people really not socially responsible enough to be able to say "Yes, rape and death threats are always wrong?" IS that really not something people are willing to say?
I've posted on RMN for about 6 years at this point, and if someone went through my post history I am confident they could construct any narrative about me they wished. But is there anything I could say or would have ever said that any of you think would justify me getting harassed or sent death threats or made to feel not safe in my own home? Are Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian not entitled to that same benefit?
It really is that simple. "Is it okay for women to be sent rape and death threats?" The answer is always "No." Always. It literally doesn't matter what X or Y or Z did or might have done. It just doesn't. It's not a game where it's okay for "your side" to do i if you can point to instances of the "other side" doing it. You just say no, and you condemn anyone who does it.
Why would anyone not condemn people who make rape threats or threaten to shoot up schools? It blows my mind.
EdgeOfChaos
1755
author=nurvuss
-snip
This guy gets it.
Zoe's personal life is none of our business
-.-
author=Solitayreauthor=Yellow MagicMy understanding of her involvement with TFYC is disagreeing with them and their ideals on Twitter. You could say maybe she should give them more benefit of the doubt or been more supportive, sure, you can have that opinion, sure. But I am certainly not aware of her making any threats that anybody should get hurt.
On the flip-side, it's very easy to paint an overly positive portrayal if presented in the right light. If her "involvement" with The Fine Young Capitalists is true, I'd certainly hesitate to call her "the raddest person ever".
What bothers me (and I'm not saying YM is guilty of this) is this whole "Well, Zoe Quinn did hblblblbl" comes dangerous close to saying "she deserved it." "She had it coming." "She's a bad person and got what she deserved."
I'd like to think that we as a society should all be able to come together and say "Women should never be getting rape/death threats for any reason." Are people really not socially responsible enough to be able to say "Yes, rape and death threats are always wrong?" IS that really not something people are willing to say?
I've posted on RMN for about 6 years at this point, and if someone went through my post history I am confident they could construct any narrative about me they wished. But is there anything I could say or would have ever said that any of you think would justify me getting harassed or sent death threats or made to feel not safe in my own home? Are Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian not entitled to that same benefit?
It really is that simple. "Is it okay for women to be sent rape and death threats?" The answer is always "No." Always. It literally doesn't matter what X or Y or Z did or might have done. It just doesn't. It's not a game where it's okay for "your side" to do i if you can point to instances of the "other side" doing it. You just say no, and you condemn anyone who does it.
Why would anyone not condemn people who make rape threats or threaten to shoot up schools? It blows my mind.
Saying zoe quinn did a bad thing doesn't mean you think she deserved it. This argument essentially says that getting death threats mean no one can criticize that person for any reason, or else you support the death threats. This is a pretty great way of killing discussion, but nothing more.
Yes, I am 100% sure we all think the threats are bad.
DarklordKeinor
2478
All of you have expended more effort than this issue deserves. GamerGate will go away if you simply let the feminists scream in their little vacuum of irrelevance. Political correctness intrudes upon every industry; are any of you honestly surprised the gaming industry was finally assaulted by it?
Do yourselves a favor: take a deep breath and go on about your day. The more notice people give to the attention starved feminists with GamerGate the longer the problem will last.
Do yourselves a favor: take a deep breath and go on about your day. The more notice people give to the attention starved feminists with GamerGate the longer the problem will last.
