SOOO... GAMERGATE

Posts

Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
The women of this debate are the ones who are being targeted in a way that is legitimate detrimental to their health and well-being. I ask-- do any of the men in this discussion feel remotely threatened by commenting on this situation? Do you feel like your career, life, etc are at stake?

Because I do. I am legitimately frightened for my future in games if the movement continues. I have just changed my name here from something gendered, I no longer have my gender listed. I want to be able to make games in the future featuring social commentary- yes, including feminism and my experiences as a woman!- without fearing for my life.

Games is my career. I am one course off of completing a degree in Game Design. And I am frightened by this movement. People and lecturers at my school are getting letters from girls who would come into this industry but are now too scared to do so.

First off, I am actually a professional game designer already (I probably have my degree in creative writing {inside joke, old story} to thank). Secondly, I posted about how I fear for my career because of this toxic culture of hatred (link here). Thirdly, I am a man. I am not trying to silence your voice or dismiss your concerns, but you asked and I answered.

Now, as to what you said. I think it's horribly fucked up--like fucked beyond words--that you and other women feel frightened of entering gaming--as an industry, as a hobby, as a community to whatever extent it is one--and I hate that that has happened. I hate the people who made it happen. And I read the blog post by Felicia Day and it broke my fucking heart.

Now, let me try and go into more of what you were saying, point by point.

This isn't a fear men have because games is seen as a man's industry. Statistics showing women are paid less in games by something like 25% are shot down by 'women don't want to make games'. Look around RMN and some of the game devs here. Liberty, Rhyme, yuna21, Racheal, Archeia_Nessiah, marimo, copious others are female devs. Do we not want to be in the industry, or are we being pushed out by movements like GamerGate? By people who no longer want feminism as an issue in games despite Ubisoft saying 'it's too hard to animate women', and the mere 2% of actual games articles that discuss feminism?

The gender gap in gaming as an industry and a hobby is narrowing, and that is a positive thing. More women are becoming involved in playing and developing games, and that is a good thing. When I see the amount of female devs here on RMN, I feel really proud of it. (Not least of all because on the whole, broadly speaking female members here have always been notably nicer to me than male members, not because I am a studly ladies man but because testosterone based rage has caused me to butt heads with many of the male members here numerous times. I digress. I am currently digressing. Sorry about that.)

And in additional- while it is very obvious and glaring here, the issues sparked by GamerGate are very real. Women and men are raised differently, and women are raised and seen as underclass. Chilvary, for example, is not about manners- if a man holds a door open for another man it becomes an embarrassment.

I don't think that any of this is accurate. I think that some of it is distorted feminist propaganda and some of it is simply misinformed. For the latter part: I have held open doors for other dudes, I have had other dudes hold open doors for me, and at no point was it an embarrassment. My girlfriend always holds open doors for people of both genders and that's never been an embarrassment either.

Chivalry is obviously sexist, but not everything that is sexist is misogynistic, and chivalry is not misogynistic.

Think of the steps you- if you are a man- take to not get sexually assaulted when you go out. What do you do, if anything? A night out at a club, what are your steps to prevent sexual assault?

Your list is probably less than five things long, if it exists at all.

Ask any woman who has ever left her home what her steps are. We are constantly under threat, and not being a woman makes that hard to process.

I am not disputing this directly, but I am questioning its relevance to this particular topic. While I don't support #GamerGate, and I don't think it's "about ethics in game journalism", I also don't think it's about attacking random women on the street. So I don't think that these points are germane.

In my country pepper spray is banned. When I had to walk home alone as a result, I bought a can of flyspray, kept my keys and phone on hand, kept my fist clenched, my bag close to myself, didn't make eye contact.

Listen, I know absolutely that I am, in a certain parlance, "speaking from a place of privilege" by saying this. And I am also plainly speaking from ignorance. I don't know what country you live in, and I know very little about life in countries outside the US. Still I would ask, with all of those disclaimers...do you really believe that level, that intensity, of wariness is fully necessary? More specifically, do you think it is something mandated more by the facts of the risk level, or by the emotional truth of how threatened you feel?

Not all men will do this but Yes All Women will experience it. That is the point. That is why we generalize. It's a concept nicely coined by Tumblr as Schrodinger's Rapist. I don't know if you're going to rape me, you might be one of the nice ones, but I can't guarantee that when I have to live my whole life in fear of my safety no matter what steps I take in terms of dress and mannerisms.

I understand what you're coming from, and I agree that the world would be a better place if there were no more rapists. If everyone who was going to become a rapist in the future was rooted out PsychoPass or Minority Report style a priori and fucking neutered, that would be awesome. But that is impossible. And as that neat if merciless solution is impossible, here is where our view points diverge.

Because while I would not flatly insist that "rape culture is not a real thing" anywhere in the world (the Middle East is SERIOUSLY FUCKED UP), I would absolutely argue that "rape culture is not a real thing" in what we broadly describe as the civilized Western world (which I'm aware is a problematic phrase with a lot of frankly colonial and hegemonic assumptions behind it but fuck it y'all know what I mean).

Anyway, again I feel the need to reiterate that this discussion of rape is not particularly germane to the topic at hand, and because of the incredibly heavy subject matter, we should all probably back off from it and back away slowly. Starting with me.

Also, Legion, you know that most of the crazies in the "SJW" camp are dudes, right? Like, they aren't psychotic fembots, but guys (maybe even well meaning?) masquerading as women being all chilvarous and whiteknight and whatnot. It's a pretty ironic twist. (at least, this is what I have heard from anecdotal sources)

Actually, yes. For the most part they are straight white men that are so amazingly condescendingly PC and "socially progressive" that their social justice war and whiteknighting has come around full circle to the point where they are disgustingly racist and sexist themselves to an astounding fucking degree. I want to punch them all. In their faces. All the faces. Every single face.

Anita Sarkeesian is a "psychotic fembot" though and like Jack Thompson circa 2004-2006, she has WAY too much credibility right now.
Ethica, if it were to exist, would have to have strict rules regarding gender debate. It would probably have to focus only on the gender of in-game characters, not talking about people irl outside of the reviews they write (which means no attacking people over their personal business. If there were outside influence - payments, bribes, sexual favours - then the focus would not be on the actual who but on the what and even then the focus would be on attacking their review, not the person themselves. Dispute their reviews, show them to be biased in comparison to many others, thus they will fall from grace).

Hell, it'd be nice if it like Anonymous when it came to disclosure about those in the movement - that is, no-one actually knowing each others' gender or background and everyone being treated equally.

It'd probably fall apart but it would be interesting to see if people could actually put aside all the bullshit and work together towards a goal without caring who they were working with.
author=kentona
But anyway, I had thought about this thread on RMN, and I felt it was telling that it was mostly dudes arguing with other dudes, and that the women here were (mostly) conspicuously absent.


Now I'll post just to spite you. =P

Weighing in, I think the main problem with GG, SJW, radfems, etc. is that generally they have grown this mindset of "The other side is WRONG, they are horrible, and look at all of these horrible things they're doing!" Depending on how radical the members are, the following actions go from "We need to prove how WRONG they are" to "We need to absolutely destroy them". This type of attitude undermines everything these people supposedly stand for, and they're too self-unaware to see it.

Yes, I know that is the 'extremist' POV, but many of the people who read these 'extremist' posts are impressionable teenagers or adults who just want to get angry and feel like they're doing something good with their anger. And even if you're smart enough to realize how murky everything is, if you see enough propaganda you might find yourself believing it.

A lot of young people now are joining up as if it's an army -- Social Justice Warrior and Not Your Shield, indeed -- and they don't realize the goal is not to "destroy opposition" but to join together in cooperation or, at least, compromise. I suppose it's not possible anymore because of how quickly this controversy has mutated.

Anyway, I agree with the person who posted about how we, as gamemakers, are influential. You want to solve the issues raised by the Gamergate controversy, do something productive because of it. You have the particular skills that all of these other people are wasting. There they are, torturing themselves over how they need to prove something to the great nebulous force of society by angrily typing over the internet. Meanwhile, you could be making a game that lasts for years in the minds of young, impressionable gamers.

Personally what I'm getting from GG is that I should make a game that teaches people not to think they know everything about anything just because they read some skeezy blog posts (or blog posts masquerading as "news articles"), and also to not be dicks while pursuing 'justice' and then get all surprised when it comes back to bite them in the ass.

Video games: the new Aesop's Fables? Games are a kind of interactive story after all. In some ways it could be a better way of teaching morals and lessons if you execute it right.

Man, I should take my own advice and go gam mak now.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32347
author=Liberty
Ethica, if it were to exist, would have to have strict rules regarding gender debate. It would probably have to focus only on the gender of in-game characters, not talking about people irl outside of the reviews they write (which means no attacking people over their personal business. If there were outside influence - payments, bribes, sexual favours - then the focus would not be on the actual who but on the what and even then the focus would be on attacking their review, not the person themselves. Dispute their reviews, show them to be biased in comparison to many others, thus they will fall from grace).

Hell, it'd be nice if it like Anonymous when it came to disclosure about those in the movement - that is, no-one actually knowing each others' gender or background and everyone being treated equally.

It'd probably fall apart but it would be interesting to see if people could actually put aside all the bullshit and work together towards a goal without caring who they were working with.

If it did fall apart, it would be because the majority of its members couldn't contain themselves and at their cores, didn't believe in it.

GamersGate isn't an isolated phenomenon. It isn't an aberration. The movement itself is toxic, but what they have to say: there's a point to it. There's fire under this smoke, and just dismissing it because of a derailed movement that got infested with bigotry isn't going to work.
Puddor
if squallbutts was a misao category i'd win every damn year
5702
I was attempting to address this thread as a whole, but-

it is relevant in that the women contributing to the discussion are receiving death and rape threats. Over what is supposed to be an issue of game's journalism, and the argument that feminism is a non-issue.

You can't argue that women aren't raised differently to men, or a majority aren't. Deriding the statement as untrue may be related to your experiences, but I am certain beyond belief my life would have been very different if I was a boy and not a girl. My issues, wants, and needs were seen as less important than my brother's. There is legitimate studies into the way we are conditioned that proves that teachers will give more time to the males to speak, even when deliberately trying to give even amounts of attention. It is an ingrained class structure.

The point I was making in regards to the difference in development is that if, god forbid, you look at the comments of any of those studies, people are still stating games is men's territory, women don't want to make games. The reality contradicts this. My degree was an even 50/50 split. I know that games is an equal territory. But movements like GamerGate are stating that feminism has no place, when feminism is the concept that would bring to light the difference in pay and how women are deliberately not hired for certain jobs, especially programming.

And yes, I do feel my fear is necessary. I live in Australia, which is by all standards 'first world'. As I said, when I was walking home alone I was stopped by a van. I have been cat called, leered at, touched inappropriately, and I am a reclusive person who does not go out clubbing or dress provocatively. It is much, much worse for people like my sister, or her friends, who are much more inclined to want a night out. Stating that rape culture is not a real thing does not mean it is not a real thing in the western world. It is not an open, obvious thing. It is an insidious, read-between-the-lines culture, whereas arguing that a person was dressed in a way that inspired them to commit the crime is considered a defense, not a confession and that women are taught don't get raped rather than men being taught not to do so. The 'don't get raped' means that someone else will. A girl who was a bit more drunk, a bit less careful, had a few less friends.

But getting this far into it is off-topic, but in that sense this movement comes from the idea that the journalism discussing feminism is not a real issue. It's something called Lewis's law. "Comments on any article about feminism justify feminism."
The comments on any article discussing the place of women in the game's industry pretty much proves that feminism needs to be discussed within the commentary on said industry, and GamerGate trying to put a halt to that is going to continue creating a toxic environment for women who would otherwise want to be a part of games.
author=Puddor
But movements like GamerGate are stating that feminism has no place, when feminism is the concept that would bring to light the difference in pay and how women are deliberately not hired for certain jobs, especially programming.

Feminism can accomplish the goal, provided the first-wave feminists gain control of the conversation.

author=Puddor
And yes, I do feel my fear is necessary. I live in Australia, which is by all standards 'first world'. As I said, when I was walking home alone I was stopped by a van. I have been cat called, leered at, touched inappropriately, and I am a reclusive person who does not go out clubbing or dress provocatively. It is much, much worse for people like my sister, or her friends, who are much more inclined to want a night out.

I'm sorry to hear you and sisters have experienced such horrible treatment. Those issues do go on in the United States of America, depending on where you go.

author=Puddor
Statingthat rape culture is not a real thing does not mean it is not a real thing in the western world. It is not an open, obvious thing. It is an insidious, read-between-the-lines culture, whereas arguing that a person was dressed in a way that inspired them to commit the crime is considered a defense, not a confession and that women are taught don't get raped rather than men being taught not to do so.

I was taught not to do so. Then again, I don't view women as objects. Rape is also against the law. The people that commit rape are vile people, sociopaths in many instances; no amount of coaching them that rape is wrong is going to chance that fact. That issue depends on the person.

author=Puddor
But getting this far into it is off-topic, but in that sense this movement comes from the idea that the journalism discussing feminism is not a real issue. It's something called Lewis's law. "Comments on any article about feminism justify feminism."
The comments on any article discussing the place of women in the game's industry pretty much proves that feminism needs to be discussed within the commentary on said industry, and GamerGate trying to put a halt to that is going to continue creating a toxic environment for women who would otherwise want to be a part of games.

I want women in the industry. I'm willing to guarantee the majority of the users on this site have no problem with women having a role in gaming, whether they be players or developers. Nonetheless, when the proponents of the feminist movement are dishonest in their conduct, such as Anita Sarkeesian, it harms the credibility of the movement.

That said, Sarkeesian did raise legitimate points with her "Tropes on Women" series. There is a negative attitude directed at women. A great opportunity exists for explicating on this issue and having a meaningful conversation. The primary problem is the following: while GamerGate is continuing to create a toxic environment for women, radical feminists, who from my perception are the most vocal, also foster an equally harmful environment.

Both of these forces have been detrimental.


author=accha
Video games: the new Aesop's Fables? Games are a kind of interactive story after all. In some ways it could be a better way of teaching morals and lessons if you execute it right.

I advocate that approach as well. Ultimately, the game should tell a good story, but there is nothing wrong with showing positive portrayals of the sexes and teaching morals through games. If a literary text can change the way people think about things, why not a game? The message is the medium, after all.
Gamergaters are the only harassers here, right?: http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com/

Here's a collection of the best if you don't want to read them all. I grabbed these from the first bit of that tumblr.

Saying that gamergaters deserve to be bullied as a child.
Telling a depressed gamergater to commit suicide.
Saying he's happy about ISIS executions because a gamergater lives in Syria,
Death threats + address posted (twice).
Saying all women in gg should die.
Saying that all ggers need to be castrated.
A woman saying she'll murder the most vocal gger.
Saying all gay ggers should be hung.
Briana calling a female gger a "fucking aspie" - quality.
The maker of the tumblr got his address posted, threats, people celebreated his father's death
Saying mothers should have a right to murder GGer children.
Quote: "going to get my gun now, after I'm done you won't need a casket" + address posted.
Calling for cops to murder ggers.
Reporting a woman's book for plagarism (false obviously) getting it investigated by Amazon and holding funds.
This one is LONG, but it's good and specifically related to feminism: http://check-your-privilege-feminists.tumblr.com/post/95979451581/i-dont-understand-how-are-you-not-a-feminist

Wow, it's almost like both sides are made up of individuals, and both sides will have radicals who harass the others. So, I guess using this thread's logic, can we now officially call feminism organized hate?

Puddor
if squallbutts was a misao category i'd win every damn year
5702
yes, totally a hate movement, because the feminist movement was created to harass gamergaters and men in general and not from the fact that women couldn't vote at one point along with the copious other rights violations that women have suffered over the course of human history and not just in the 21st century

yep
feminism is a hate movement

(and i am now exiting this thread)
author=EdgeOfChaos
can we now officially call feminism organized hate?

Sorry but no. Just because a vocal minority are being radicals about it doesn't mean that us feminists are an 'organized hate movement.' I would like to express my concerns about my favorite characters's attire, such as wearing bra straps and sticker panties, as both an artist and player with my favorite fighting game. I would like my opinion and credibility not being rendered obsolete just because I'm a female gamer. I would also hate to be told, "Pft, you're a girl. Get out of here this is not your turf and get back to your social games."

also how about let's use gamer gate's defense now, "NOT ALL MEN" how about I say, "NOT ALL FEMINISTS" are like that?

author=Puddor
yes, totally a hate movement, because the feminist movement was created to harass gamergaters and men in general and not from the fact that women couldn't vote at one point along with the copious other rights violations that women have suffered over the course of human history and not just in the 21st century

Let's not forget that women are lesser than a horse back then. And that being a 'pussy' means you're lesser of a human being and a sign of cowardice. Or how about the way they describe 'Run like a girl' among many other sexist/misogynistic things. Or how in the bible, one of the prophets (I forgot his name) even called Women as evil beings or how the existence of Lilith is being denied.

I shall exit this thread and continue game making.
Are you kidding? That was quite obviously sarcastic, especially looking at the sentence before it.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Ethica, if it were to exist <snip>

I am not sure to what degree this idea is serious or not but an actual movement that was actually about Ethics In Game Journalism wouldn't have anything to do with things like sexual favors in exchange for favorable reviews in the first place because that is a fucking unicorn. It literally doesn't goddamn exist. It is not a thing that happens. Like "voter fraud" it is a completely made-up non-issue.

It would be about the institutional corruption in AAA Games Coverage that has nothing to do with indie devs and their little passion projects. And has nothing to do with the ongoing gender politics debate.

it is relevant in that the women contributing to the discussion are receiving death and rape threats.

My argument is that the issue of harassment/assault of random women on the street is perpendicular to the issue of specific women being targeted with death and rape threats. Obviously neither one is good, but only the latter is really relevant to this topic.

and that women are taught don't get raped rather than men being taught not to do so

This is a false dichotomy. In most of the civilized world, men are taught that rape is wrong just as much that women are taught certain behavioral safeguards against the possibility of being sexually assaulted. I agree that the societal onus of preventing rape obviously should not be solely on women--I also think it obviously is not.

The comments on any article discussing the place of women in the game's industry pretty much proves that feminism needs to be discussed within the commentary on said industry, and GamerGate trying to put a halt to that is going to continue creating a toxic environment for women who would otherwise want to be a part of games.

The key understanding I wish you could internalize and reflect upon is that radical feminists and social justice warriors are contributing noticeably to the toxification of the culture not just for women, but for everyone. Feminism is not blameless in the creation of this toxic culture in gaming. GamerGate is--not claims to be, but actually is--a reactionary backlash against radical feminist ideologues as much as it is anything else.

author=Puddor
(and i am now exiting this thread)

author=Archeia_Nessiah
I shall exit this thread and continue game making.

*sigh* I feel really uncomfortable with the fact that female posters and developers are exiting this thread. The truth is there actually is a lot of hateful behavior and hateful ideas in the modern feminist movement and especially the social justice warrior scene.

But now I feel like for whatever reason the female voices in this thread feel too uncomfortable to continue participating which makes me feel yucky about this thread and the way it's gone. There are reasonable points I'd like to make to Nessy and Krysty about how they sort of misinterpreted or missed the point of what EdgeOfChaos was saying, but now that they have departed the conversation, that seems impossible and pointless. When the people you want to reach have stopped listening, then it's impossible to have a productive conversation, and there's no denying that. It's a shame because part of me felt like I was actually getting somewhere. But to be clear in no way am I blaming them for leaving.

And I think I am going to make at least a token effort to be done with this discussion too. If women feel they need to peace out, then it has soured somewhere.
Keep in mind when someone says "I'm done with this conversation", they typically come back and read more. I think pizza said he was leaving before then came back, as did another (I believe).

And I think I am going to make at least a token effort to be done with this discussion too. If women feel they need to peace out, then it has soured somewhere.
You have to keep in mind that many people get mad when their ideas are criticized, it doesn't necessarily mean the critics are doing something wrong. Accha, Liberty, and some other women are still here anyways.

If you want to make a point, I would say just make it. They'll probably read it anyways, and it's good for any other poster who's reading this.

What has gamergate accomplished?
Isrieri
"My father told me this would happen."
6155
author=kentona
What has gamergate accomplished?
author=kentona
What has gamergate accomplished?
Nothing related to gaming journalism. I think it's pretty useless. I am not arguing for gamergate, but I am pretty damn sick of the "argument" where you find a few examples of shitty extremists on the other side then say "everyone in this movement is evil". That was the point of my post. You can do the same exact thing with feminism (as I showed), and none of the ones using this argument say "Oh, I guess feminism is evil". People also use this to call Islam evil because they can point out a few terrorists, and also use it in politics (in the USA at least)

I did argue against feminism to an extent, but not based on the extremists. I criticized a few ideas like that "society fucking hates women".
It has actually accomplished a lot!

-it got several women to abandon their homes in fear
-it got their families harassed
-it got a talk on feminism canceled at a school due to a terrorist threat
-it got a lot of gamergate supporters harassed and threatened in retaliation
-it reinforced the whiny male white nerd manchild stereotype
-it alienated a lot of women in the industry
-it has set back the discussion on ethics in game journalism

gj gg
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
author=Max McGee
I'm sorry, would you care to explain your fundamental opposition to basic and obvious truths? If you take nudes of yourself and post them to the internet, whose fault is it there are nudes of you on the internet?


No.

All of these things are true at the time of this writing. Zoe Quinn actually DID deserve the emotional distress she suffered for being as shitty of a person as she was.


No.


Two important caveats. 1) The people who threatened her with death and rape and whatnot were WRONG. 2) If she were actually killed, or raped, or grievously injured, or something similarly serious, I would never say THAT was something she deserved. But yeah, she's an evil bitch, and I think she deserves emotional distress for being an evil bitch.


No

It really is that simple. "Is it okay for women to be sent rape and death threats?" The answer is always "No." Always. It literally doesn't matter what X or Y or Z did or might have done. It just doesn't. It's not a game where it's okay for "your side" to do i if you can point to instances of the "other side" doing it. You just say no, and you condemn anyone who does it.
Um, obviously. No one disagrees with any of this.


Why would anyone not condemn people who make rape threats or threaten to shoot up schools? It blows my mind.
No sane person would not condemn that. I condemn it, certainly. I think you're arguing against a straw man here.


NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

NO


You cannot fucking say this.

You cannot say "I am against rape and death threats but Quinn totally deserved them."

You can't say that! You can't!

This is exactly the kind of mental gymnastic bullshit hypocrisy on which GG thrives. You can't just state "Well obviously we're against rape and death threats as anyone would be but face it, the bitch had it coming."

This. This right here. This very sentiment is exactly what is wrong with #GamerGate. Your argument literally personifies it.

I cannot tell you how angry this makes me.

author=Max McGee
Saying "I've long since learned not to take claims about X seriously" is problematic where X is any real observable phenomenon, including radical feminists being despicable.


Digging up some example of 'bad' feminists is such an empty argument. There is no demographic on the planet which I can't find examples of people being horrible. It just reads like an excuse to somehow say GamerGate is okay because there are bad people out there.

Also, the article you linked is not feminism. It is the most misogynistic thing I have ever read. The person who wrote this hates women. She does not believe they have any agency, any ability to make decisions for themselves about who to love or what to do with their own bodies.

Trying to pass this off as an example of feminism basically reads as misinformation to me. This doesn't belong under the umbrella of feminism.

This doesn't belong anywhere.
author=kentona
What has gamergate accomplished?


An admin, upon hearing the threat of a school shooting, used tools as his disposal to find the name and location of said shithole and reported him to the FBI which resulted in his dorm room being raided!




Wait, that's the 2d spacemans farting simulator I play and not gg. My bad!

Some weirdo was making rapey and creepy comments in game one night at about one AM. I yelled at them, they responded with a couple weird cryptic messages and then this, roughly: "well thanks for all the fun times here, i've got my rifle loaded and i'm gonna be shooting up a school full of kids in the morning, so this is goodbye"

User key was his first initial and last name with a number, that same account name was also used by a certain college student's blog and google+ page. Found his city and college from those, and the IP address he was playing from matched the ip registry for that college. Submitted the admin log, ip and timestamps to the FBI's online tips form, got several frantic calls back from city police and FBI agents over the next several hours and ended up getting calls from various detectives and fbi agents every hour or so from one am to three pm. No goddamn sleep.

Dude's dorm room was raided and he was arrested within about three hours of his comments, dorm was searched, computer taken to forensics, all that jazz. I dunno what happened past that though. I did have to write up some incident reports and attach a whole bunch of supplementary text and pictures about what ss13 is, how we log player communications and login info, how people find the game, how people register for the game, and a whole bunch of other stuff like that. Somewhere there's a screenshot in an FBI evidence folder showing a bunch of regular players farting, because it was impossible to find any portion of the game chat panel WITHOUT farting.

goddamn you all
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
author=Solitayre

NO
You cannot fucking say this.

You cannot say "I am against rape and death threats but Quinn totally deserved them."

You can't say that! You can't!

Actually, I totally can, because free speech, so fuck you.

author=Solitayre
Digging up some example of 'bad' GamerGaters is such an empty argument. There is no demographic on the planet which I can't find examples of people being horrible.

So examples of people in GamerGate being horrible is sufficient to condemn the entire movement, while examples of Social Justice Warriors being horrible is an empty argument?

Yeah, that seems very internally consistent and not at all like TOTAL FUCKING BULLSHIT HYPOCRISY.

Your position disgusts me.

Also, the article you linked is not feminism. It is the most misogynistic thing I have ever read. The person who wrote this hates women. She does not believe they have any agency, any ability to make decisions for themselves about who to love or what to do with their own bodies.

In other words, a typical modern radfem.

Trying to pass this off as an example of feminism basically reads as misinformation to me. This doesn't belong under the umbrella of feminism.

This doesn't belong anywhere.

She identifies as a feminist, her followers and supporters identify as feminist, who the fuck are you to say she isn't you patriarchal condescending jerk? Do you get to define what all movements are about, or just GamerGate? If Solitayre decides that #YesAllWomen is actually about mustaches, does that become so?