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OF GAMES, REPRESENTATION, AND WOMEN'S CHEEKBONES
Posts
Tyranos
1115
Tyranos
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CloseLooks like Max McGee for all of the disagreements I have with him in various areas understands discrimination is a practice and can only be accomplished when used against what people are not what they do, that there is no protection in the US constitution from hurt feelings as it doesn't violates any rights you have, and that no one is obligated to look deep into any organization. If you have a bunch of idiots run around claiming they are part of your movement and giving it a bad name you disconnect with them. You do not continue to allow anyone to associate you to them. Bravo Max.
Now you ought to look up Moreland Farmers Pantry as an example of inexcusable behavior on part of SJW's. It's sad to see someone who did not actually discriminate or show bigotry of any kind in her dealings ostracized from a community because her personal thoughts on gay marriage. The sad part is that by getting that store to close down several homosexual workers now lack jobs. For all the bluster of SJW's they've hurt who they claim they were helping, showing their true colors, as it's clear gay rights are a pet crusade for their own agenda of obtaining popularity.
Now you ought to look up Moreland Farmers Pantry as an example of inexcusable behavior on part of SJW's. It's sad to see someone who did not actually discriminate or show bigotry of any kind in her dealings ostracized from a community because her personal thoughts on gay marriage. The sad part is that by getting that store to close down several homosexual workers now lack jobs. For all the bluster of SJW's they've hurt who they claim they were helping, showing their true colors, as it's clear gay rights are a pet crusade for their own agenda of obtaining popularity.
author=Max
Out of curiosity, in your opinion is either one ever acceptable for white people to say? Not really a part of my vernacular, personally, but I've seen SJW types get angry at white people for singing along the word 'nigga' at rap concerts because they were into the music because that was somehow "racist", which seems like a bit much to me personally.
I don't know. It puts me in a weird space. Outside of an academic or explanatory context, 'Nigger' is absolutely unacceptable to use in casual conversation and especially as a slur. I don't think anyone will argue that.
'Nigga' on the other hand...is tricky. Most people know that many young, African Americans use it amongst each other as a greeting or as a form of endearment ("What's up my nigga", etc), and it's long found its place in rap and hip-hop, almost in a form of reclaiming the word. Being partly African American myself, I of course knew the difference contextually between both words, but I never had that built in intrinsic horror that many while people have to both words.
When white people use it...I'm not sure. I want to say it's one of the most obvious forms of cultural appropriation that many people would agree with, but the word has become so ubiquitous in so much rap and hip hop music (genres that white people consume a lot, and that's okay) it can be hard to judge it from a distance.
I remember one time in the car with my girlfriend, listening to J Cole, rapping along, and my (white, totally whitebread) girlfriend had memorized the lyrics and was singing along as well. When the word 'nigga' dropped in the chorus, I guess I must have visibly felt weird or something, because my girlfriend asked me how I feel about white people singing along to a song with the lyrics. She'd never do something that would make me uncomfortably, but she did ask me to mull over; "What am I supposed to do when we're singing a song together, just fall silent to that part of the chorus? That is the song, and if music is art, and art is expression, doesn't it dull the meaning of the entire concept if one person is censoring it and one person isn't?"
I didn't have a good answer.
ElectricalKat
254
Hello! It's ... been ages since I last posted here.
I read the first 1/3 of this topic; it seemed like, despite the intrusion of a few people who wanted to shit up the discussion, eventually a discussion was actually being conducted. I shout out to mawk, Liberty, PentagonBuddy, and many others; I'm really glad that RMN has people like you here. Especially you too, WetMattos, for starting this discussion in the first place.
I quit years back because the experience of having nearly the entire community defending casual use of the well-known "T-slur" made me feel like this place was not quite welcoming to trans people like myself, a trans woman. You can find that in my most recent posts, btw. Be warned, though. :|
I've since grown a little bit "stronger"; however one would define that. I shouldn't have needed to, though. I shouldn't have had to flee because I felt that people here were not accepting of very real societal issues that do hurt me. For many other trans women, as well ... have also proven fatal.
...Then I fast forwarded to the last few pages and apparently I read that the topic shitted itself eventually. Le fucking sigh.
I don't know if I should really continue to post here again. I kind of did but seeing that this shit is still around is very demoralizing. But, I'm going to say that while I would definitely like to discuss with WetMattos some of her points (perhaps I'd disagree with her on a few, too) RMN is, again, coming off to me as a place where people like us are just not welcome, or discussion of any acceptance is a topic that has to be delayed even more because of the presence of people like Max McGee. (by the way, glad to know you're still as clueless as I left you Max!) The spirit of what she says, however, I certainly agree with.
You don't have to have a forum of "only game topics" to try and mask out the bigots. Their very presence can be enough of a deterrent. As WetMattos hinted at early on, there is an extremely real threat against trans women and other marginalized groups that GamerGate et. al. are targeting. I've personally seen a few of my friends get harassed near to the point of suicide. One of them in particular is even having GamerGate attempt to paint her as a pedophile right as we speak!
(by the way, gators in this thread, don't bother trying to argue against this--I've learned not to give any of you a single cycle of my brain ever since I saw the beginnings of your (trans)misogynistic movement in August, before it was named "GamerGate")
Oh and there's the little atmosphere of not being considered human enough to deserve a basic level of respect. That can kind of damper the mood, eh?
I'll continue reading this thread later; my insomnia is really, really catching up to me and I have to find a way to force myself to sleep soon.
I have a lot of problems with how several people in social justice circles carry themselves, but to those in this thread using "SJW" and tumblrlol like they're supposed to mean something please go warpspeed into a nebula of piss thanks. Basically every single time I hear those terms mentioned by people in GamerGate, MRAs, and the like, it is nearly always to try and demonize points of view that are anywhere nearly progressive.
...Also notice how I said I have problems with several people; feminists, as it turns out, don't always agree! The common caricature of "extreme" feminism that I hear about all the fucking time is something I'll never really understand.
edit: I seem to be almost a month necromancing this post; eh, whatever. I felt like I should've said my piece as someone who dealt with this before, and I did. I guess it's up to this website whether or not to confirm my optimism. Please don't let me down!
I read the first 1/3 of this topic; it seemed like, despite the intrusion of a few people who wanted to shit up the discussion, eventually a discussion was actually being conducted. I shout out to mawk, Liberty, PentagonBuddy, and many others; I'm really glad that RMN has people like you here. Especially you too, WetMattos, for starting this discussion in the first place.
I quit years back because the experience of having nearly the entire community defending casual use of the well-known "T-slur" made me feel like this place was not quite welcoming to trans people like myself, a trans woman. You can find that in my most recent posts, btw. Be warned, though. :|
I've since grown a little bit "stronger"; however one would define that. I shouldn't have needed to, though. I shouldn't have had to flee because I felt that people here were not accepting of very real societal issues that do hurt me. For many other trans women, as well ... have also proven fatal.
...Then I fast forwarded to the last few pages and apparently I read that the topic shitted itself eventually. Le fucking sigh.
I don't know if I should really continue to post here again. I kind of did but seeing that this shit is still around is very demoralizing. But, I'm going to say that while I would definitely like to discuss with WetMattos some of her points (perhaps I'd disagree with her on a few, too) RMN is, again, coming off to me as a place where people like us are just not welcome, or discussion of any acceptance is a topic that has to be delayed even more because of the presence of people like Max McGee. (by the way, glad to know you're still as clueless as I left you Max!) The spirit of what she says, however, I certainly agree with.
You don't have to have a forum of "only game topics" to try and mask out the bigots. Their very presence can be enough of a deterrent. As WetMattos hinted at early on, there is an extremely real threat against trans women and other marginalized groups that GamerGate et. al. are targeting. I've personally seen a few of my friends get harassed near to the point of suicide. One of them in particular is even having GamerGate attempt to paint her as a pedophile right as we speak!
(by the way, gators in this thread, don't bother trying to argue against this--I've learned not to give any of you a single cycle of my brain ever since I saw the beginnings of your (trans)misogynistic movement in August, before it was named "GamerGate")
Oh and there's the little atmosphere of not being considered human enough to deserve a basic level of respect. That can kind of damper the mood, eh?
I'll continue reading this thread later; my insomnia is really, really catching up to me and I have to find a way to force myself to sleep soon.
I have a lot of problems with how several people in social justice circles carry themselves, but to those in this thread using "SJW" and tumblrlol like they're supposed to mean something please go warpspeed into a nebula of piss thanks. Basically every single time I hear those terms mentioned by people in GamerGate, MRAs, and the like, it is nearly always to try and demonize points of view that are anywhere nearly progressive.
...Also notice how I said I have problems with several people; feminists, as it turns out, don't always agree! The common caricature of "extreme" feminism that I hear about all the fucking time is something I'll never really understand.
edit: I seem to be almost a month necromancing this post; eh, whatever. I felt like I should've said my piece as someone who dealt with this before, and I did. I guess it's up to this website whether or not to confirm my optimism. Please don't let me down!
Just avoid this topic and you should be fine. If anyone gives you trouble over being trans, report them to the moderators/admin (either by hitting the report button under a post, or sending a PM to one of us). We won't stand for that kind of crap.
Frankly, I'd leave this thread behind. There's a lot of interesting stuff written here but a lot of shit as well.
Frankly, I'd leave this thread behind. There's a lot of interesting stuff written here but a lot of shit as well.
ElectricalKat
254
It's not really this thread alone, but that something like this can seemingly pop up, anytime. There are other places and forums that specifically prohibit this kind of hate that honestly I would recommend over here to people who are marginalized, sadly. :\
As much as I'd like to..... Until that last topic, I kind of liked this place.
Anyway I don't mean to speak overly bad of RMN? It's something I've learned from friends and spending enough time seeing people I know hurt. Safe spaces really count for so much. It's why the "code of conduct" concept is spreading fast in open source communities etc.
As much as I'd like to..... Until that last topic, I kind of liked this place.
Anyway I don't mean to speak overly bad of RMN? It's something I've learned from friends and spending enough time seeing people I know hurt. Safe spaces really count for so much. It's why the "code of conduct" concept is spreading fast in open source communities etc.
Our past and differences aside Ekat, I must also echo Libby's advice on avoiding this topic; it's been maddening enough for me, and I feel it could have a similar effect on you after a point.
ElectricalKat
254
author=ElectricalKatI kind of realized just now in my insomnia I left out something: You said that reporting is fine if someone is being outright transphobic and that's good! But ... well this discussion is going into a place that's just going to extend this thread further and it's clear that's not desired, if you want to discuss it I guess PMs are fine.
It's not really this thread alone, but that something like this can seemingly pop up, anytime. There are other places and forums that specifically prohibit this kind of hate that honestly I would recommend over here to people who are marginalized, sadly. :\
As much as I'd like to..... Until that last topic, I kind of liked this place.
Anyway I don't mean to speak overly bad of RMN? It's something I've learned from friends and spending enough time seeing people I know hurt. Safe spaces really count for so much. It's why the "code of conduct" concept is spreading fast in open source communities etc.
author=Zeigfried_McBacon"past and differences" is ... one way of putting it, I guess. But let us not diverge any more.
Our past and differences aside Ekat, I must also echo Libby's advice on avoiding this topic; it's been maddening enough for me, and I feel it could have a similar effect on you after a point.
Electrical Kat, keep in mind that Max Mcgee is one person out of the hundred or so who visit this site. Don't take the shitstorms a pocket-full of people brew up as a representation of this community. It's actually gotten much better compared to the WIP era (it was especially so when Max left for a long period at one point), and there are many reasonable, welcoming people here to connect with.
we're still drama kings and queens, though.
we're still drama kings and queens, though.
The fact that you report it means that it's not allowed on the site - the reporting is there so that we know where to find infractions in case we miss them. In other words, if anyone does say anything bad about you or others being trans, letting us know allows us to crack down on it as the rules say. But we need to know it's happening before we can do anything.
This thread, however, for for people to talk about such things. It is not aimed at anyone in particular, and while certain people in the thread are less welcoming than others, they are talking in the abstract of their own beliefs, not aimed at anyone in the thread or on the site. In the case that they do press past those boundaries we deal with it.
This thread, however, for for people to talk about such things. It is not aimed at anyone in particular, and while certain people in the thread are less welcoming than others, they are talking in the abstract of their own beliefs, not aimed at anyone in the thread or on the site. In the case that they do press past those boundaries we deal with it.
author=Liberty
This thread, however, for for people to talk about such things. It is not aimed at anyone in particular, and while certain people in the thread are less welcoming than others, they are talking in the abstract of their own beliefs, not aimed at anyone in the thread or on the site. In the case that they do press past those boundaries we deal with it.
I'm not okay with this. This is a greenlight for people to come in and be as disruptive and disparaging as possible as long as they're very careful to not technically break any rules.
I was thinking more breaking down why people feel that kind of way and the like, what the usual beliefs of such are and where such thinking comes from, how to change it and, well, more scientific discussion, less people ranting and raving and acting like assholes to each other.
Sadly, such things don't go that way when certain groups get together. Which is why I quit this topic ages ago and just came back because holy shit, someone posted in it. I thought it'd died already. I was getting funeral rights ready! (Already had a plot dug out, too.)
Frankly, I think it's okay to talk about such things but people get too stupid sometimes, especially when certain others jump in to have their say. Passion is great and all, but it makes for bad discussion when no-one listens to the other.
Sadly, such things don't go that way when certain groups get together. Which is why I quit this topic ages ago and just came back because holy shit, someone posted in it. I thought it'd died already. I was getting funeral rights ready! (Already had a plot dug out, too.)
Frankly, I think it's okay to talk about such things but people get too stupid sometimes, especially when certain others jump in to have their say. Passion is great and all, but it makes for bad discussion when no-one listens to the other.
ElectricalKat
254
author=Ratty524
Electrical Kat, keep in mind that Max Mcgee is one person out of the hundred or so who visit this site. Don't take the shitstorms a pocket-full of people brew up as a representation of this community. It's actually gotten much better compared to the WIP era (it was especially so when Max left for a long period at one point), and there are many reasonable, welcoming people here to connect with.
To be honest, Max is one of the most vocal in this thread. There was also Tyranos with this little bit from http://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/18459/?post=660095#post660095:
author=Tyranos
Sorry for stating reality to you.
Among ... others. As if to try speaking for all women with that assertion and have the hubris to believe they can dictate "reality" for a trans woman. Sorry bucko, you don't get to tell us what your definition of "reality" is. <3
Not to mention other bits from BizarreMonkey, and a few others like SnowOwl who were comparatively "subdued". Golden meaners like alterego don't really help raise my confidence, either. People are allowed to have opinions, of course (I'm nipping this in the bud right now because I know someone is going to bring up the eventual lalala free speech lalala CENSORS!); however, given what I've seen so far it does seem like the community is allowing the same vocal people to come in and shit up threads that could discuss progressive issues like these whenever they pop up. The golden mean fallacies of "well the feminists and the bigots are just as bad as each other!!!" show to me, also, that there are members of this community that wouldn't like discussion at all either because they believe every progressive is bad too!
So no. Max, Tyranos, et. al. are a few members of hundreds, but that they seem to be implicitly allowed to disrupt threads like these is something I can't accept.
author=Liberty
The fact that you report it means that it's not allowed on the site - the reporting is there so that we know where to find infractions in case we miss them. In other words, if anyone does say anything bad about you or others being trans, letting us know allows us to crack down on it as the rules say. But we need to know it's happening before we can do anything.
This thread, however, for for people to talk about such things. It is not aimed at anyone in particular, and while certain people in the thread are less welcoming than others, they are talking in the abstract of their own beliefs, not aimed at anyone in the thread or on the site. In the case that they do press past those boundaries we deal with it.
I've been seeing the last year or so happen more than enough to know what Soli says is more than true.
author=Solitayre
I'm not okay with this. This is a greenlight for people to come in and be as disruptive and disparaging as possible as long as they're very careful to not technically break any rules.
I am very much up for discussion and education of certain issues to people and I've done so many, many times. I am not up for discussion of certain issues with people who will plainly declare that they won't listen, and they will continue to try and mouth off at will whatever reactionary or regressive beliefs in a thread that will go nowhere. I don't have the energy for this and I'd rather spend it on other, much better ventures. Like writing my game's story!
It seems like, from this vantage point, that is going to be allowed to pass whenever any topic related to representation, feminism, progressive issues, etc. arises. I can't see how this is fine at all.
It goes well beyond outright racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobic, etc. Also...
author=Liberty
Sadly, such things don't go that way when certain groups get together. Which is why I quit this topic ages ago and just came back because holy shit, someone posted in it. I thought it'd died already. I was getting funeral rights ready! (Already had a plot dug out, too.)
Frankly, I think it's okay to talk about such things but people get too stupid sometimes, especially when certain others jump in to have their say. Passion is great and all, but it makes for bad discussion when no-one listens to the other.
Yeah, these things won't go well at all when certain groups get together. Because the group that just wants to hold back discussion is allowed to go into these things!
I guess I have a different philosophy of moderation than you, but if there is a topic discussing feminist issues, I don't believe it is appropriate to let posters with super-conservative beliefs come in and see if they can derail the discussion with stuff that feminism is either disproving right now or has disproven long ago. Of course they're going to do that. However do you believe anything useful is going to come from this?
To use an extreme example to illustrate a point, it's like allowing neo-Nazis into a discussion about discrimination against Jewish people. That just isn't going to work and letting this pass is only going to prove to Jewish people that neo-Nazis are implicitly allowed to go freely about with their beliefs. And let Jewish people feel that they are not welcome in such a forum, despite any veneer of "accepting community" that is painted.
You have to control your community or it ends up collapsing in on itself.
ElectricalKat
254
That post probably seems angrier than it should be but ..... well, perhaps I am frustrated. Frankly, I've seen too fucking many communities with the attitude of "let it pass, sweep it under the rug" when it comes to trolls and miscreants and the code of conduct movement might help it? Or it might not. It depends if the codes of conduct have any teeth in the sense that administrations will even enforce them. This especially includes ridding your community of members that continually will break it.
Tell me if I'm wrong in assuming this because from what I've seen in the past, and from what I'm seeing right now, I can't help but assume it.
No. Sweeping it under the rug doesn't work. In the end, people who are marginalized will still end up feeling unwelcome. You'll lose us with this philosophy.
Tell me if I'm wrong in assuming this because from what I've seen in the past, and from what I'm seeing right now, I can't help but assume it.
No. Sweeping it under the rug doesn't work. In the end, people who are marginalized will still end up feeling unwelcome. You'll lose us with this philosophy.
author=ElectricalKat
That post probably seems angrier than it should be but ..... well, perhaps I am frustrated. Frankly, I've seen too fucking many communities with the attitude of "let it pass, sweep it under the rug" when it comes to trolls and miscreants and the code of conduct movement might help it? Or it might not. It depends if the codes of conduct have any teeth in the sense that administrations will even enforce them. This especially includes ridding your community of members that continually will break it.
Tell me if I'm wrong in assuming this because from what I've seen in the past, and from what I'm seeing right now, I can't help but assume it.
No. Sweeping it under the rug doesn't work. In the end, people who are marginalized will still end up feeling unwelcome. You'll lose us with this philosophy.
This is relevant so i'll be repeating it.
Have you read it? Then do it again, until the message sticks.
I just constantly find myself asking 'how many topics are we required to let the same few people derail in the name of fairness?" Exactly how many? Five? Six? We're probably there already.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
I brought this up a month ago:
author=Corfaisusauthor=Feldschlacht IVThe only way to maintain peace is at gunpoint; I believe someone said that recently. Unless we rounded up the troublesome and mass-banned them, there's no way that we'll be able to successfully "foster an environment that breeds intelligence and consideration".author=CorfaisusI don't think we need to fundamentally alter the structure of the site to maintain standards of discussion. Just foster an environment that breeds intelligence and consideration.
Perhaps a new "Social Justice" subforum is in order? One where once you're booted, you're gone for good. Like a staff forum open to the public. Screen out known troublemakers from the beginning; I'm sure we have enough evidence who those people are by now.
ElectricalKat
254
author=Corfaisus
I brought this up a month ago:
author=Corfaisusauthor=Feldschlacht IVThe only way to maintain peace is at gunpoint; I believe someone said that recently. Unless we rounded up the troublesome and mass-banned them, there's no way that we'll be able to successfully "foster an environment that breeds intelligence and consideration".author=CorfaisusI don't think we need to fundamentally alter the structure of the site to maintain standards of discussion. Just foster an environment that breeds intelligence and consideration.
Perhaps a new "Social Justice" subforum is in order? One where once you're booted, you're gone for good. Like a staff forum open to the public. Screen out known troublemakers from the beginning; I'm sure we have enough evidence who those people are by now.
Unfortunately, I'm beginning to think this is probably the only solution, too. :\ As much as I'd like that not to be the solution--I'm much more of a "Rousseau" believer than a "Hobbes"-ian.
People who don't want to behave will probably never behave, sadly...
author=Sated
If y'all are too stupid to ignore people who you think are trying to derail the thread, y'all deserve to get your thread derailed.
"waaahh these meanies are trying to stop me from shitting up threads i have the right to shit threads up as much as i want!!!"
author=Sated
I'm against dictating who can or can't post in specific threads. If you want to outright ban someone then go ahead, but don't pick and choose where they can or can't post; it's a messy, non-specific way of applying the rules that will probably just lead to confusion.
If people are discussing feminism and your only contribution is to only say "well feminism is WRONg and BAD and blbl ahblah blh" or something to that effect, I don't think you're contributing something useful in the first place.
SnowOwl
5188
Some thoughts on "safe spaces", which seems to be a popular word in these types of discussions: The whole idea of a "safe space" goes completely against what forums are for, which is discussion. If you really want to discuss something and not just have a bunch of people that pat each others backs, forget the whole idea of safe spaces. I'm pretty sure a couple of users and mods disagree with me on this, though.
It's a silly idea in the first place where you avert your eyes from reality, in a search for affirmation that you're special and everyone else should accommodate your every need. If you can't handle discussion where not everyone agrees with your ideas, just say so in the first post and specify that you don't want peoples opinions. Maybe name the topic "Everyone agree with me or get out".
Just for clarity, that not to say I think that obvious trolls should be allowed to do whatever.
It's a silly idea in the first place where you avert your eyes from reality, in a search for affirmation that you're special and everyone else should accommodate your every need. If you can't handle discussion where not everyone agrees with your ideas, just say so in the first post and specify that you don't want peoples opinions. Maybe name the topic "Everyone agree with me or get out".
Just for clarity, that not to say I think that obvious trolls should be allowed to do whatever.
