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A.I. GENERATION AND RMN
Posts
JosephSeraph
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CloseOldPat
AI is part of progress
Horrifyingly true, but only in the 'linearity of time' sense of the word progress. I mean labour laws have progressed but we as a collectively still experience labor in a much more oppressive way than before
Now whether that's progress in the more colloquial positive sense, that's another story
To make a parallel: Climate change is progress lol
Puddor
This rule isn't about enemy AI or the photoshop healing tool or the proofreading AI injections coming into writing software. Look at the itch.io new assets page. That is what this rule is for. To avoid that.
Razor-sharp precision.
Quentin
Yeah we are about to be deluged by a sea of mediocrity in all facets of art and entertainment.
Ouch what did Marvel Studios do to you
Anyway it's inevitable that such a decision would stir many sentiments both amongst AI bros AND artists, and as the latter, I do find myself struggling to understand how to navigate the post-Dall-E world
Specifically, I got hospitalized last year, during that period the whole Dall-E craze happened, then my uncle had his stroke, I spent 2 months caring for him entirely removed from my existance as an artist, and then in November when I got back, well, things were the way they were.
Am I supposed to learn to work with AI if I want to continue to make a living out of my work？I don't know. I know that my family is hungry, I'm an older brother to 3, with a sickly but hardworking mother. I know that I have to make ends meet. And as such I find myself navigating this AI field and understanding if and how it'll impact my work and my workflow. To be clear, the thought of using AI to do commission work or asset packs has never even crossed my mind, but the local company I used to work as an art director at HAS added AI to their workflow and they reached out to me early this year to hire me back. (Due to my uncle's recent passing I was in no condition to accept.)
My mother on the other hand, she is a tattoo artist, and she uses Midjourney to generate tattoo ideas. She, once again, supports a family of five. Midjourney helps. But it can't and it won't replace her 30 years' worth of skill as a tattoo artist, her ability to compose tattoos on a person's body, her ink application technique, her medical knowledge so tattoos heal properly, her sensibilities so she knows what a client may regret later or her attentive ears as her needles prick their skin.
I had several arguments with her over her using Midjourney but I have to shut up, I can only argue with her if I can feed her children, my siblings. In the end this is a very sensitive topic to navigate when it directly affects your job, and I'm sure y'all can relate, or will be able to sooner or later.
That is to say that
Frogge
I long for the day Liberty can make an admin decision on this site without someone calling her a tyrannical overlord lmao
This isn't very helpful. It's not about Liberty, it's about a complex issue that would obviously stir reactions.
In that same breath I agree with Puddor's take on it 100%.
Antilurker77
871
author=OzzyTheOne
For what its worth, I'd like to throw my opinion into the mix. First of all, I do not want to argue Libby's announcement, the decisions of the site admins are more or less final, all I wish though is that some of these things would be discussed in a more public matter before being decided upon.
Some arguments, specifically JosephSeraph's and Sidewinder's, are compelling arguments against a carpet ban of all AI-generated stuff. I am not a fan of AI generated images/assets, but there are non-unethical uses of said tools.
I also echo Sgt M's sentiment that AI shouldn't be used as a solution, but as a tool. While it is very depressing to think that people would replace the passion and love that goes into making anything by using AI, some other just augment their passion and fun with these AI tools.
I am not going to argue the ban of AI-generated assets, but I would've wished for the decision to be discussed a little more publicly before being decided, so that all the arguments that have come up now and retroactive clarifications could've been talked about before a ruling is made.
I was gonna write a big effort post, but I saw this and it echos my thoughts as well.
This announcement comes of as short-sighted and too broad (for reasons OldPat mentioned) as well as antagonistic. Was there really a flood of low-effort AI content flooding the site? The new policy is only going to drive the handful of people away that were using it sparingly and subtly. How exactly is the site being improved here?
And this isn't even getting into the whole morality of AI tools. It was brushed off as "AI bad" but it's much deeper than that. I feel like a lot of the complaints against AI are stemming from this being uncharted territory for technological advancements and people not knowing how to react, so they dismiss it as "unethical" rather than actually examining what AI does and what it's current and potential capabilities are.
author=JosephSeraphOldPatHorrifyingly true, but only in the 'linearity of time' sense of the word progress. I mean labour laws have progressed but we as a collectively still experience labor in a much more oppressive way than before
AI is part of progresscapitalismthe emergence of certain aspects of contemporaneous social organization.
Now whether that's progress in the more colloquial positive sense, that's another story
Never said it's "positive", nor "negative" for all that matters. It's just the direction we're headed in for now so of course many will take that route.
But we're now talking about game dev here, specifically our community.
Let's not please skim through the rest of what I just wrote, which isn't just a simple "I'm idealistic AI is bad so of course let's FIRE AT WILL" (which I understand, mind you) thing but a more elaborate take on how the frick can something like that being "left aside" in the most subtle but organized way possible. And it's by just allowing people to post what they want, do quality control so we can reject gargabe or very obvious art steal and then allow user to FILTER them off.
It's like putting a ban on alcohol. You're not gonna stop people from abusing the thing, it will just come in in a more hidden and "uncontrolled" way.
As I said, the problem is that you can't fight it off with a rule so generic as "we're banning everything that starts with A and ends with I" because that's not how you avoid the Itch.io like situation. And any feedback on the matter, to help ironing the rule out, seems pointless as the first post suggests that feedback will not be listened too.
(I mean, Itch.io like situation can be slightly avoided already by doing the quality control that has been done 'til now).
But if we want the staff to open each project that comes into the mix and find traces of AI in it, of course that's a road that can be taken.
I mean, whatever works best for the staff I guess, they have to do all the hard work not me :P
OldPat
As I said, the problem is that you can't fight it off with a rule so generic as "we're banning everything that starts with A and ends with I" because that's not how you avoid the Itch.io like situation. And any feedback on the matter, to help ironing the rule out, seems pointless as the first post suggests that feedback will not be listened too.
This is exactly what I've been worried about; the demand to shut down feedback. No consideration taken. And developers that have already had AI stuff accepted won't even be getting the basic courtesy of a warning before it's just unilaterally decided that they're violating a rule and will be one strike away from a ban. Even without that, this is just a terrible rule; poorly thought out and conceived, sweeping, and taking absolutely no consideration for what it's even doing.
What Liberty is trying to do is stop the inevitable influx of AI-generated games that we knew were coming because developers in our threads both here and on Discord were actually developing tools for AI-generated games and sharing those tools with us! It's what kicked this whole thing off! What she's actually doing is hamstringing nearly all of us because that's not all that AI is. She's already said in her initial post that she won't even entertain feedback. So we can just forget about making suggestions of making the rule refined, reasonable, or even fair.
"Antagonistic" is an understatement.
A rule preventing AI-generated content is necessary at this point, but what's happened here is going to do nothing but harm the community. The people who have already had AI-generated stuff accepted didn't do anything wrong and don't deserve to be punished. If they have to take their stuff down, tell them! Don't just jump on them like a feral cat. Most devs on this site don't even use the forums. Most of them aren't even going to know this rule exists until they get a warning in their DMs telling them their game has been removed and if they try to upload them again, they'll be banned. Wait! Based on the rule, they might not even get that!
author=JosephSeraph
also do y'all remember this site?
Aw yeah, and it works flawlessly: https://i.imgur.com/vJ0Aakm.png
author=pianotm
And developers that have already had AI stuff accepted won't even be getting the basic courtesy of a warning before it's just unilaterally decided that they're violating a rule and will be one strike away from a ban. Even without that, this is just a terrible rule; poorly thought out and conceived, sweeping, and taking absolutely no consideration for what it's even doing.
I'm speaking on behalf of Liberty here so take this with a grain of salt, but it wasn't said that developers who already had AI art games on the site would be getting a strike towards a ban. I'm fairly sure you will only get strikes if you actively submit AI content from now on knowing that it is no longer allowed.
Irog
4858
author=Liberty
One day they'll listen to me and not argue. It'll probably be the day I quit and the quitting is what they don't argue about. XD
I would argue! This site would not be as great without you. You're an energetic funny person carrying out a difficult role for this community. Thank you Libby.
I don't know how to say it more than I already have, but we will take each future instance case by case, because we know there's places where people are going to get resources and not realised they're AI-generated and people who miss this post about the rules and don't realise. We're not going to be all damnation and hellfire on people - when the fuck have we ever been except when the rules were broken and even then I like to think we give more chances than we probably should sometimes (god knows people complain about how soft I can be as it is XD )?
And those who already submitted their games to their site with AI resources included won't be penalised for it, bar being told that A) they will need to remove those resources if the game wants to remain on the site, and B) that going forward we ask they don't do this again as it's part of the site rules. As with all cases where we investigate theft or resource issues, the gamepage will be denied (not deleted - we NEVER delete. That power only lies with the developer/s.) pending investigation or change.
In the case they don't want to change, that's fine... the game won't be accepted and they can post it elsewhere if they like, just not here. If they press the issue and cause a fuss as some people have done in the past, it may progress to a ban, but that would be based on your reaction, not the actual act of submitting a game. (I have clarified this a bit better in the OP - sorry if people were thinking we were going to go on a banning spree for even submitting a game with AI resources, that's not the case.)
And those who already submitted their games to their site with AI resources included won't be penalised for it, bar being told that A) they will need to remove those resources if the game wants to remain on the site, and B) that going forward we ask they don't do this again as it's part of the site rules. As with all cases where we investigate theft or resource issues, the gamepage will be denied (not deleted - we NEVER delete. That power only lies with the developer/s.) pending investigation or change.
In the case they don't want to change, that's fine... the game won't be accepted and they can post it elsewhere if they like, just not here. If they press the issue and cause a fuss as some people have done in the past, it may progress to a ban, but that would be based on your reaction, not the actual act of submitting a game. (I have clarified this a bit better in the OP - sorry if people were thinking we were going to go on a banning spree for even submitting a game with AI resources, that's not the case.)
author=OldPatauthor=JosephSeraphAw yeah, and it works flawlessly: https://i.imgur.com/vJ0Aakm.png
also do y'all remember this site?
Oi! >:(
If I remind correctly, I used AI just once for a game in RMN: thispersondoesnotexist (RMN's 14th birthday event).
Some people use AI because they don't know how to create their own (good quality) assets.
Not everybody has the skill (and the software) to compose a soundtrack.
Not everybody has the skill to create a nice battle background.
Not everybody has the skill to create a cool story.
A very old monster I created for side-view battles. I'm pretty sure AI could do way better but that's fine.
Some people use AI because they don't know how to create their own (good quality) assets.
Not everybody has the skill (and the software) to compose a soundtrack.
Not everybody has the skill to create a nice battle background.
Not everybody has the skill to create a cool story.
A very old monster I created for side-view battles. I'm pretty sure AI could do way better but that's fine.
author=Fflo
If I remind correctly, I used AI just once for a game in RMN: thispersondoesnotexist (RMN's 14th birthday event).
Some people use AI because they don't know how to create their own (good quality) assets.
Not everybody has the skill (and the software) to compose a soundtrack.
Not everybody has the skill to create a nice battle background.
Not everybody has the skill to create a cool story.
A very old monster I created for side-view battles. I'm pretty sure AI could do way better but that's fine.
That's why you grind up your exp and put forth effort to learn and grow. 'tis the rpg maker way.
author=Liberty
That's why you grind up your exp and put forth effort to learn and grow. 'tis the rpg maker way.
So, you're saying that the Level 100 boss at the start was a tutorial boss?
Jokes aside, yeah. It's always a grind regardless. Some take a long time, others fairly easier. If anything, time will always be the worst enemy for everyone.
As for my stance in the topic, well, this is quite the easier solution as opposed to having already working mods to have to put tags out of nowhere. Or even bother adding in new mods to deal with this. This site works on volunteering for this stuff unless Liberty finally decided to give us Makerscore allowances each month. And considering how old this site is, I wouldn't be surprised having to add a new tag would be quite the disastrous attempt (obvious personal experience). Plus the anachronism stew.
And for anyone having complete doubts about AI overtaking your jobs. Don't even bother, really. If AI can't even do basic math, you might as well consider your job safe. Yes, there are LLMs that can do these sort of stuff but even then they tend to hallucinate the wildest answers. I don't think putting in a JS plugin would help solve the Map Tree Error, buddy.
I wasn't suggesting mod putting tags on AI games, that would've defeat the whole purpose of "let's not bother them too much with something so uncontrollable as this".
I was suggesting users uploading their games doing that themselves (mods doing that is an "extra", let's say, if for some reason they'd find a game without a tag in it). In an environment where their games aren't banned/warned/frowned upon for using AIs, most of them would've probably do that happily and voluntarily (a good percentage of them, at least) and so it would've also been easy for us to filter them out if needed when searching for games, etc etc.
But the case is closed anyway, just wanted to better explain what I meant to Vaccaria, not trying to make this idea go through lol.
I was suggesting users uploading their games doing that themselves (mods doing that is an "extra", let's say, if for some reason they'd find a game without a tag in it). In an environment where their games aren't banned/warned/frowned upon for using AIs, most of them would've probably do that happily and voluntarily (a good percentage of them, at least) and so it would've also been easy for us to filter them out if needed when searching for games, etc etc.
But the case is closed anyway, just wanted to better explain what I meant to Vaccaria, not trying to make this idea go through lol.
I think doing that would've been counterintuitive to the fact that we're not just against AI generated content for bloating the site, but mostly because of the fact that we think it's unethical. I don't think the ban would've been put in place if our only concern was that it doesn't look good, but the bigger issue at hand is that:
- It's trained off of the work of independent artists without their permission
- It reduces the visibility of human artists, not just on this site, but on places like artstation or twitter where many of them depend on their visibility for their livelihood
- It poses the risk of replacing many jobs in the creative industry, which is already a pain in the ass to get into
I'm in support of the ban not just because I don't want the site to be filled with soulless AI crap, but also because I appreciate RMN for taking a stance against something that threatens the creative industry - one that I am trying to be a part of.
- It's trained off of the work of independent artists without their permission
- It reduces the visibility of human artists, not just on this site, but on places like artstation or twitter where many of them depend on their visibility for their livelihood
- It poses the risk of replacing many jobs in the creative industry, which is already a pain in the ass to get into
I'm in support of the ban not just because I don't want the site to be filled with soulless AI crap, but also because I appreciate RMN for taking a stance against something that threatens the creative industry - one that I am trying to be a part of.
author=Darken
you guys should change the rules more, the forums got so active all of a sudden
henceforce all DBZ fangames are banne
author=kentonaauthor=Darkenhenceforce all DBZ fangames are banne
you guys should change the rules more, the forums got so active all of a sudden
i cant believe kentona would say that im crying and shaking and
author=Frogge
I think doing that would've been counterintuitive to the fact that we're not just against AI generated content for bloating the site, but mostly because of the fact that we think it's unethical. I don't think the ban would've been put in place if our only concern was that it doesn't look good, but the bigger issue at hand is that:
- It's trained off of the work of independent artists without their permission
- It reduces the visibility of human artists, not just on this site, but on places like artstation or twitter where many of them depend on their visibility for their livelihood
- It poses the risk of replacing many jobs in the creative industry, which is already a pain in the ass to get into
I'm in support of the ban not just because I don't want the site to be filled with soulless AI crap, but also because I appreciate RMN for taking a stance against something that threatens the creative industry - one that I am trying to be a part of.
Definitely. What I said was just one part of it: a literal hassle for anyone. And I should've iterated that it shouldn't be phrased as the 'easiest' solution. Because any other would just be against what was already talked about. It still is fucked up that even out of all the jobs that AI is competing for, it's the art world that hits it the most. And the fact that what I've seen in Twitter so far are just ridicule and ableism against artists is just as good as an indicator as to what their intention is.
Also yeah, how else am I supposed to say 'skill issue' to AI artists? (don't harass users though pls dont banne me huahahuhuhu)
author=OldPat
...In an environment where their games aren't banned/warned/frowned upon for using AIs, most of them would've probably do that happily and voluntarily (a good percentage of them, at least) and so it would've also been easy for us to filter them out if needed when searching for games, etc etc.
Man, if only there was that environment. Sadly, it just isn't here. Plus I do have faith in the mods here to do their work and catch anyone not abiding the rules.
Not kentona though. Stop being lazy and think of numbers :V
