GO MAKE ME A SANDWICH: SEXUALITY IN BAYONETTA (AND OTHER GAMES)

bahleted

Barring a few exceptions, when was the last time an award-winning film was aimed solely at one very specific demographic?

Barring a few exceptions, when was the last time a massive-money-making film was not aimed solely at one very specific demographic?

...sorry, I just had to point that out...

author=Mitsuhide_The_Vagrant
I just wanted to say that this is the ONLY topic I've read every page and every post for in the forums. Now why do you think that is?

Because this issue is important whether you like it or not.

You've finally realized that having no life is an enviable trait.

It is an interesting topic, I just don't agree with where the article is coming from, specifically. There are plenty of other media forms that exploit women a lot more than games do, and it's a good thing to discuss the overarching problems of sexism and exploitation.

Next up: Porn.

The best course of action is to stop buying and playing video games.

<--- supporting women's rights in videogames since 1998

@Kindredz: u mad bro?

@FG: You're fighting an uphill battle. What they say about females in the media is invariably true. There's always exceptions, of course, but it's still the "rule." Also, female gamers are indeed technically a minority, though possibly not as much as you might think. There was a recent poll/study that Joystiq posted that said, iirc, about 46% of gamer respondents were female vs. 54% male. I tried finding the link, but failed.

@Acra: I have never, EVER heard that juvenile level of misogyny in any online game I've participated in. I'm not saying you are exaggerating, and I agree that it is vile, but I don't think these individuals were directly influenced by sexism in the media. Of course the widespread problem didn't help at all as it aligned itself with their already-established perceptions of women, but I just can't see that they were raised watching Spike TV and being taught to treat women that way.

What I HAVE heard is the eponymous phrase, "go make me a sandwich," which is pretty much equivalent to a racial slur. Maybe this is more representative of the widespread issue, because no person that I've heard say it has been misogynist. Doesn't make the phrase and easier to swallow, but I'm sure this is the kind of thing you roll your eyes at. I know that women these comments were directed at did pretty much that, or shot right back with a quip no doubt referencing the offender's penis size.

Either way, I can't decide of these sorts of things would be considered off topic. I don't know if the sexism problem is as far-reaching as that. People on the internet tend to be offensive for the sake of being offensive (and funny) when it's obvious the person has no ill will towards women (or blacks, or gay people, etc). I'm leaning towards the problem contributing more to the sexual objectification of women in men's eyes, not so much about gender superiority. But I'd be happy to discuss any links you perceive between the two.

it's not what they're aiming to do by having women wear skimpy clothing, it's what they are unintentionally doing. i understand the male audience argument but why do so many companies seem to forget that women gamers actually exist and surprise, surprise aren't particularly keen on women who should otherwise gain our respect being blatantly oversexualised in games.

Okay so my girlfriend (and I say 'de facto fiance' because we cohabitate and have been together for like five years now) is a woman gamer and really doesn't give a crap about the sexualization of female characters in games. I believe her perspective was something along the lines of, "Why does RMN hate tits so much? What red blooded male hates tits? What is wrong with them?". Her words, not mine, and I left out the most potentially offensive part. Also I'm pretty sure she was talking about the heterosexual male user base here, so not yourself, booblededoo, or craze.

So let's none of us make generalizations about women? Female gamers especially, like anyone else, can have any number of perspectives. But the argument that "all women" or "all female gamers" are offended or harmed by this is a false one.

all this being said, i'm actually not all that offended by most women in videogames

As you said.

and i am very unsurprised about the story of males ostracising the women in online games too. i imagine it happens pretty frequently.

Actually what I've heard a lot of woman gamers talk about is how happy/unhappy they are that they often get free stuff and everyone is really nice to them when playing MMORPGs and participating in online communities. Some of them are happy to take advantage, others feel really patronized by it, but that's the type of behavior I've seen reported on more often, reading about the experiences of female gamers. I'm surprised that kind of "discrimination" hasn't been brought up here as opposed to the more direct kind, which I'd honestly never heard of happening before in this day and age.

well, when i watch television i assure you the majority of women i see are usually pretty. men don't have the same amount of pressure, at least nowhere near to the same extent. average/'ugly' men are far more acceptable in the media. sure there are some not-so-hot actressess but i don't believe the ratio is equivalent at all.

This is absolutely correct. The standards for female attractiveness in the media are MUCH more exacting, and the pressure on girls to be attractive is much greater than the pressure on men. This is pretty undeniable, FG, I don't know how you can argue about it.

However, I also don't see what this has to do with the topic.

I don't think videogames are a significant part of this "problem", though. Not compared to magazines like Cosmopolitan and shows like America's Next Top Model...well, I could go ahead and list the entirety of western culture, but you get the idea. Because I think that women realize that video game characters are not real, and therefore are neither competition, nor a standard being set that they need to meet.

tl;dr attractive/sexualized female characters in games does not harm/offend all female gamers and videogames are a relatively small part of the general cultural factors surrounding female image problems.

Basically, if more women play more games more often, this "problem" may well even itself out.

Uh, you do realize there's a possibility that not enough girls play video games for a reasons related to what we're talking about? Like how are more girls supposed to play more games if there's almost a NO GIRLS ALLOWED sign on them.

I don't know I can't speak for her and she won't post here because of internet hate. I think her point is that she is neither offended by big ass titties nor the camera being pointed at them. (My words, not hers.)

Someone earlier said that they didn't mind sexualized characters as long as the costumes weren't ridiculously impractical. I can mostly agree with that. Chainmail bikinis are just dumb.

I can't believe that AAA studio execs didn't realize that women love to spend money!*

~rimshot~

*not serious**


**kind of serious (in the sense that they were ignoring a pretty sizable demographic for a long time. That and my wife LOVES to spend money (personal experience))

author=Fallen-Griever
I could go onto Google and pull loads of images of unattractive actresses and attractive male actors (and vice-versa) but I'm not going to. Don't be daft, there are plenty of ugly people in the media.

I know this is another topic but I'd really like to see some examples of leading ladies (or even some well-known character actresses) that aren't attractive.

I'm talking about the female Ron Perlmans or Stephen Tobolowskys. (and previously famous actresses that just got old don't count)

One that could possibly qualify maybe that I can come up with off the top of my head is possibly Jane Lynch. (and I only thought of that because Stephen Tobolowsky was in Glee too :)