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GO MAKE ME A SANDWICH: SEXUALITY IN BAYONETTA (AND OTHER GAMES)
Posts
chana
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Closeauthor=KindredzAnd that not an opinion...?! and a very oriented one , at that! I find some viewpoints, particularly the last and before last ones (p.12) you quote, very pertinent!author=ThiamorYou're making too much sense so get outta here. People with nothing important to do or think about need something to argue about...lest they realize that they have nothing important to do or think about. I don't know anyone that will accept the fact that they and their thoughts are useless in the grand scheme. Making people feel that they and their thoughts are important and valid...the fuel that America runs on.
You do know, if a woman gets pissed at a game in this sense, stop freaking paying attention to that game. It isn't like an actual man, being sexually abusive to you, the women, to your face. It is a game in which isn't being forced onto the buyers. If you don't like it and feel it is wrong, you turn your head. It isn't real, and if it were real, would've been stopped already.
Also if you're feeling bad for the FAKE woman in the 'said' game, then you need to get locked up and treated for being mentally insane.
A game, is a game, is a game. No need to start pulling some feminist bullshit out. that would be like Peta being pissed at fake animal abuse.
author=treeghostIn a serious work, no character should be a sex object first and whatever else second, and females consistently get the short end of the stick.Soul Calibur and Metroid are very serious games.
They where up until Taki and Ivy became the poster girls of the next issue of Playboy, but lets face it more than half the games we've played draw fuel from some form of stereotype that clearly sets a predefined idea of how certain genders, ethnic groups, etc behave and it quite honestly pisses a number of people off. The games themselves has been less about improving on the old and making the games fun and more on selling with tactics like sex appeal or 3rd Party characters like Yoda and Spawn to boost sales.
author=Kindredzauthor=ThiamorYou're making too much sense so get outta here. People with nothing important to do or think about need something to argue about...lest they realize that they have nothing important to do or think about. I don't know anyone that will accept the fact that they and their thoughts are useless in the grand scheme. Making people feel that they and their thoughts are important and valid...the fuel that America runs on.
You do know, if a woman gets pissed at a game in this sense, stop freaking paying attention to that game. It isn't like an actual man, being sexually abusive to you, the women, to your face. It is a game in which isn't being forced onto the buyers. If you don't like it and feel it is wrong, you turn your head. It isn't real, and if it were real, would've been stopped already.
Also if you're feeling bad for the FAKE woman in the 'said' game, then you need to get locked up and treated for being mentally insane.
A game, is a game, is a game. No need to start pulling some feminist bullshit out. that would be like Peta being pissed at fake animal abuse.
As for you two, you honestly surprised the hell out of me with comments like those.
@Thiamor, Regardless of whether not it's real most games and movies that portray abuse of some form are more often than not based on events that happen everyday. That's right, somewhere in this paradise we call earth a women is getting beaten or locked in a cellar somewhere with nothing but her abuser there. More often than not, gamers are reminded at some point of time in the conscience that these games aren't always make believe.
@Kindredz, You're joking right, if you really think that there is some almighty power that has our entire future written out or that there is no power to the many individuals that don't work in the government then you need to get your head examined. Slavery, Women's Rights Movement, and Gay Marriage. I'm pretty sure each of those went against "Fate" and Government plenty of times.
Perihelion
665
Kindredz, I'm not really sure why you wrote this big post about how everything I said was my opinion. Of course it's my opinion. You even quoted me saying it was fine to disagree with me.
Almost every single post in this thread has been an opinion, so I'm not sure why you're attacking me specifically.
Anyway, I have no problem with Prexus's wife not thinking that oversexualization of women in video games is a problem. I do have a problem with her attacking the people supporting the argument instead of the argument itself. If I said to you, "you don't agree that this is a problem because you're a misogynistic asshole who spends all of his time on 4chan masturbating to guro," it would be the same problem. It's incendiary, it takes attention away from the issue, and it has no real basis.
Even if you honestly believe that every person who thinks women are too sexualized in video games is an insecure woman, the validity of a statement has nothing to do with the person saying it. If I say the economy is bad and you say "well you don't have a job so your opinion doesn't count," it doesn't make the economy not bad.
Anyway, I feel like everyone in this thread is shouting past each other and no one's listening. There's not a lot of point in a discussion when none of the parties (myself included) are willing to change their position, so I'm going to respectfully bow out of the conversation.
Perihelion
It's fine to not agree that it's a problem
Almost every single post in this thread has been an opinion, so I'm not sure why you're attacking me specifically.
Anyway, I have no problem with Prexus's wife not thinking that oversexualization of women in video games is a problem. I do have a problem with her attacking the people supporting the argument instead of the argument itself. If I said to you, "you don't agree that this is a problem because you're a misogynistic asshole who spends all of his time on 4chan masturbating to guro," it would be the same problem. It's incendiary, it takes attention away from the issue, and it has no real basis.
Even if you honestly believe that every person who thinks women are too sexualized in video games is an insecure woman, the validity of a statement has nothing to do with the person saying it. If I say the economy is bad and you say "well you don't have a job so your opinion doesn't count," it doesn't make the economy not bad.
Anyway, I feel like everyone in this thread is shouting past each other and no one's listening. There's not a lot of point in a discussion when none of the parties (myself included) are willing to change their position, so I'm going to respectfully bow out of the conversation.
Seriously, as a man(i looked up you profile), can you feel jealous of a certain quantity of pixels?! or even of an actor, Jonnhy Depp,definitely handsome, yes, but A CHARACTER, you know, like in books, only a certain aspect of humanity, or of a drawing?! Which does not bmean that te systematic oversexualized physical appearance of this character (drawn, pixelised, actor, book-character) and the way the characters of one gender is systematically badly treated, made to be an idiot or a talking object(that is sexism), the bad representation of the characters of one gender should not offense, worse, alienate a person of that gender. But, I would say that anybody who would...not identify, characters are made for that(to a certain extent)... but place him or herself on the same level as a piece of creation to the point of feeling jealous or not jealous(or thinking others would be or not) would have serious mental problems!
Perihelion
665
That's a fair point. It's part of the issue insofar as it ties into female body issues and unrealistic images projected by the media and all of that, but unrealistically attractive people show up in all media. That problem isn't unique to video games at all, yet the negative female reaction is. I think it's disingenuous to reduce the issue to "oh they're just insecure" when it's clearly much more complex than that.
I thought I was going to leave this thread, but whatever.
I thought I was going to leave this thread, but whatever.
I want to stress the fact that they are NOT people, but some form of art, if a woman puts herself on the same level, comparing herself to a form of art then i'm afraid she has fallen into the pit, and looks upon herself as an object.
maybe they are just desensitized to the other media/art forms by now? Whereas semi-realistic looking videogames are a recent thing.
I am male and probably to most people the last person who's opinion on this matters, but these are my thoughts:
1) Someone mentioned this earlier, but this phenomenon is hardly unique to video games. It occurs in every art form: There's Picasso, and there's pornography. There are paintings that were obviously meant to please the male eye, so to speak, and there are paintings where a woman (sometimes beautiful, sometimes nude) is created with a deeper purpose, with every detail of her character carefully laid our by the artist. Video games have seen both sides of the issue, but again - if there are people with a want or desire, companies will seek to fill it. It's some part of human nature (at least, in this day and age) to crave beautiful, sexualized women, and so games like DoA Beach Volleyball make money. It's the porn of the interactive media world (until they come out with interactive porn.)
2) Sexual lines aren't drawn evenly between males and females. We live in a society that judges both men and women by how many sexual partners they've had - men are congratulated by their friends, and women are branded with titles like slut by their enemies. It works in reverse, too - women are often offended if a man stares at her chest, but men find it more than acceptable for a woman to stare at him if he's a handsome dude.
When it comes down to video games, many female gamers are offended if their gender is represented hyperfeminine. However, many men prefer their owngender to be represented hypermasculine - think of the lead characters in God of War, Devil May Cry, or really, any game where you control a badass who is extremely muscular, extremely powerful, or both. Do male players want to play a wimpy guy who lets the girl get taken by another man, or the heroic stallion of manliness who saves her?
That last idea was taken from an article written (by a female) about Bayonetta here:
http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/213466/bayonetta-empowering-or-exploitative/
The author writes about players using their video game to explore the life of another character. The character may be unrealistic or just plain ridiculous, but that's the point.
I don't know. I certainly don't blame companies for giving people what they want. You can blame misogynistic males, but that's not really deep enough. I think it comes down to the judgement line between males and females - if humanity was less quick to pass judgement, perhaps sexual women wouldn't be treated as "sluts" and they could get the same respect that sexual men do.
It's funny, one of my female friends sometimes tries to talk about who she's had sex with, but she always wonders if I'm judging her or is embarrassed afterwards. Why is it a big deal? I'm completely cool with women being able to have sex without being judged or called names. That just means more women having sex and thus more men having sex, and everyone being less insecure in general.
1) Someone mentioned this earlier, but this phenomenon is hardly unique to video games. It occurs in every art form: There's Picasso, and there's pornography. There are paintings that were obviously meant to please the male eye, so to speak, and there are paintings where a woman (sometimes beautiful, sometimes nude) is created with a deeper purpose, with every detail of her character carefully laid our by the artist. Video games have seen both sides of the issue, but again - if there are people with a want or desire, companies will seek to fill it. It's some part of human nature (at least, in this day and age) to crave beautiful, sexualized women, and so games like DoA Beach Volleyball make money. It's the porn of the interactive media world (until they come out with interactive porn.)
2) Sexual lines aren't drawn evenly between males and females. We live in a society that judges both men and women by how many sexual partners they've had - men are congratulated by their friends, and women are branded with titles like slut by their enemies. It works in reverse, too - women are often offended if a man stares at her chest, but men find it more than acceptable for a woman to stare at him if he's a handsome dude.
When it comes down to video games, many female gamers are offended if their gender is represented hyperfeminine. However, many men prefer their owngender to be represented hypermasculine - think of the lead characters in God of War, Devil May Cry, or really, any game where you control a badass who is extremely muscular, extremely powerful, or both. Do male players want to play a wimpy guy who lets the girl get taken by another man, or the heroic stallion of manliness who saves her?
That last idea was taken from an article written (by a female) about Bayonetta here:
http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/213466/bayonetta-empowering-or-exploitative/
The author writes about players using their video game to explore the life of another character. The character may be unrealistic or just plain ridiculous, but that's the point.
I don't know. I certainly don't blame companies for giving people what they want. You can blame misogynistic males, but that's not really deep enough. I think it comes down to the judgement line between males and females - if humanity was less quick to pass judgement, perhaps sexual women wouldn't be treated as "sluts" and they could get the same respect that sexual men do.
It's funny, one of my female friends sometimes tries to talk about who she's had sex with, but she always wonders if I'm judging her or is embarrassed afterwards. Why is it a big deal? I'm completely cool with women being able to have sex without being judged or called names. That just means more women having sex and thus more men having sex, and everyone being less insecure in general.
prexus
309
author=Perihelion
Anyway, I have no problem with Prexus's wife not thinking that oversexualization of women in video games is a problem. I do have a problem with her attacking the people supporting the argument instead of the argument itself. If I said to you, "you don't agree that this is a problem because you're a misogynistic asshole who spends all of his time on 4chan masturbating to guro," it would be the same problem. It's incendiary, it takes attention away from the issue, and it has no real basis..
Just FYI, she has never attacked anyone regarding this. Infact, when I mentioned it to her, it was probably the first time she had ever thought about it.
However, in your original response you say that there is a time and place for it. Well unfortunately, videogames developed for an audience that is primarily male (this is changing, but still true) it is the time and place for it. The Bayonetta reference in particular was created as a silly, over the top, highly sexualized romp. That was the point. That was the design.
The reason I think that Dragon Age comes up as a "it really didn't make sense here" scenario is because everything else about the game is very... authentic? I mean, it's a fantasy game, but they went to the limit in terms of trying to create a full and realistic as possible world. I think there was a disjoint between the animators/modelers and the designers, or that the modelers were just really lazy and copypasta'd the bodies of all the females. It just doesn't seem right the way they did it.
Kindredz
7
author=Lowell_Richards
@Kindredz, You're joking right, if you really think that there is some almighty power that has our entire future written out or that there is no power to the many individuals that don't work in the government then you need to get your head examined. Slavery, Women's Rights Movement, and Gay Marriage. I'm pretty sure each of those went against "Fate" and Government plenty of times.
Lol. Please, Lowell_Richards...if you don't mind, could you please enlighten me as to why you feel the plight of video game pixels are comparable to slavery, women's rights, and gay marriage?
Because they "Went against "Fate" and Government plenty of times". It says right there.
(I actually have no idea what that means because I haven't been following this thread so I'll shut up now.)
(I actually have no idea what that means because I haven't been following this thread so I'll shut up now.)
author=chana
the way women are treated in video games, like in films ads etc., is only a reflection of the way they're treated in real life.
author=Fallen-Grieverauthor=chanaSo that explains why the hero only gets the girl once he has acquired ridiculous levels of power and gained 999,999 GIL,author=chana
the way women are treated in video games, like in films ads etc., is only a reflection of the way they're treated in real life.
Not dissimilar from real life; men with money and power have no trouble finding mates. Although that's not exactly unfair; the ability to take care of one's self and others is a legitimate venue of attractiveness.
http://rpgmaker.net/articles/492/
Yeah I took too long with this, sorry.
Read, educate yourself on the history of gender roles, their recent decline, and why it's your fault.
Yeah I took too long with this, sorry.
Read, educate yourself on the history of gender roles, their recent decline, and why it's your fault.
momomoko
22
I'm a bit lazy to read through the entirety of this topic but what I've noticed is that female characters are usually "badass sexy" with massive breasts or a weakling, support-healer type of chick.
I've noticed that the latter usually appears in Japanese media. Has there ever been a Japanese game with a "badass sexy" female protagonist? Should Lightning from FFXIII be considered one? I haven't really played that much Japanese games with female protagonists...
Anyways, I actually enjoy discussing stuff like this.
I've noticed that the latter usually appears in Japanese media. Has there ever been a Japanese game with a "badass sexy" female protagonist? Should Lightning from FFXIII be considered one? I haven't really played that much Japanese games with female protagonists...
Anyways, I actually enjoy discussing stuff like this.
