GO MAKE ME A SANDWICH: SEXUALITY IN BAYONETTA (AND OTHER GAMES)

bahleted

author=Cray
I wouldn`t mind oversexualized women in games or media in general, if we could se the same for guys, I believe in equal treatement.
The difference is that while women don't really care much about women being oversexualized in games, men definitely don't like oversexualized male characters in their games, I think it has to do with a much bigger subject that involves general male sexuality, and our own insecurities. Men are taught to run away from a sexualized male, becuase otherwise they would be considered gay, and that's completely stupid, I mean one thing is to not be attracted to another guy, and a different thing is to not being able to look at one. Women can hold eachothers' hands, say how pretty they think the other one are, and they are not considered gayer for doint it. But because guys don't allow themselves to do that because they fear they might be considered gay (and probably would) they reject any form of closer contact, and for the same reason they would run from a game with a sexualized male character.
ON the other hand I'm a gay male speaking so my view might differ form yours, but I'm pretty sure about what I'm saying. I don't like women sexually, but I don't run away from a vagina picture, but I've seen men run away like children when a shirtless man appears, it's really weird.

I'm not sure how you would 'implement' over-sexualized men.

For women, it is easy. Tits, ass, figure, fap. Throw in a raspy southern voice and a slutty attitude.

For men it is different, I think. Although speaking from a purely heterosexual point of view I may not have the appropriate input. There are two, maybe three main 'male' heroes I see in modern video games. The barrel-chested space marine (Gears of War, Bulletstorm, Duke Nukem, etc,) the effeminate boy-toy (Tidus, ... JRPG heroes I guess,) and the regular dude (Gordon Freeman) and then obviously children heroes but lets not talk about over-sexualized children.

I suppose they appeal to different types of women, but it's not like a guy is going to run around with his cock hanging out. Here are just a few of the reasons that it doesn't make sense:

1. Does a woman really want to see this? I'm sure if my cock was hanging out, women would not want to stare at it (but they would because of how great it is.)
2. Men do pretty much everything in their power to keep their cock hidden from other men. In the majority of settings, there are many men running around. Even a hero saving the world would take the time to tuck it back in if it meant the difference between another guy seeing or not seeing it.

I think the point of pivot comes from the fact that the female body is beautiful, the male body is functional. While there are many, many exceptions to the rules (body builder females, feminine men) this is in general likely the reason why game developers can't sexualize men. There is nothing to work with. Big muscles, sweaty abs, a healthy smile, and a tight ass are about all you can work with; and in all fairness these are in most games already.

author=newdisciples
No one's really answered this yet: What exactly is an oversexualized male image anyhow? Is Kratos not an example of this?

I'd say, no to Kratos being oversexualized, because he's a character who wasn't imagined in terms of sex appeal. He is, however, highly "masculinized" because he is a muscular, terse, aggressive figure. He's not imagined as a prospective sexual partner for the female audience.

Compare with someone like the character of Dar from the Beastmaster TV series, whose bare skin, and moreso his compassionate character, are meant to draw the attention of the female viewers of the day and to hold him as an object of sexual interest. Compared in context to sexually agressive or the unembellished figures of other male characters in the series, I would definetly call that character "sexualized".

bahleted

I can tell the difference between the average joe and a zit faced fat ugly dude, but I honest to Christ cannot understand what makes Brad Pitt so attractive to women. Perhaps I have just blocked it out, but in any case I don't care to think about it because it's a non-issue for me. As for the wanting to show love for other males though... the books are just plain wrong. I've never been compelled to hold a buddy's hand, and it's hard for me to believe other men would either.

Anyways, this has steered the conversation a little off course. I would have to agree with newdisciples that the idea of an oversexualized male is simply a matter of interpretation and highly subjective. What you describe here sounds more like Kratos isn't sexualized because he has a mean looking mug.

author=Fallen-Griever

Pretty sure it's a social science...

Exactly. Hence not actually a science. The person who came up with the term "social science" is also on my steel-chair list.

Isn't science defined as "The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."? With that said, why wouldn't the pursuit of knowledge regarding human social constructs and social organization and patterns not be a science?

You can't dictate what is or what isn't a science because you don't like it/doesn't have enough beakers/nerds/etc. I don't mean to deviate from the topic but I'm just saying.

author=Cray
You are confusing a muscular a manly male with a oversexualized male, Kratos might be muscular and manly but he sure as hell isn't sexy to mostly any female.
To me a oversexualized man would wear something like tight clothes, and a nice athletic body, and a good looking face, that much more attractive than Kratos or any hulk character of WoW.

you mean like the example I provided?

still quietly fapping

I am so far detached from thinking about sexiness in video games. I only see characters as attractive or unattractive, not sexual. I don't get people who look at games with that kind of eye. I do know that Bayonetta irritates me trying to push sexuality. Best way to put it is that I do not like what I see.

No, I do not want to see Bayonetta naked or showing off her butt. I do not desire to see Bayonetta porn on the internet. I dislike lolita crap, and that stupid sucker disturbs me and makes it hard for me to take the game seriously. Rather than trying to equate some moral message to how I feel (taste has more to do with it), I stay away from this game and let other peoples' wallets fund this game if it matters so much to them. And sure enough there's people who find this game so super sexy it's profitable to make. Sad to know it's true.

** Not to say everyone who plays Bayonetta plays it for sexuality. Looks to me there are a number of people for whom this is the biggest draw though. And there's people who believe it makes the game so much better, where I see what could be a decent game gone much worse.

It always kind of irks me when grown adults in games dodge the issue of sexuality entirely; unless the issue at hand is really pressing (too busy shooting to make small talk), or the character is isolated from human contact (Portal), or the character is abstinent (saintly paladin-types).

The example that comes to mind is a bunch of soldiers in their trench or something during some down time; I'd almost be taken aback if sex wasn't one of the topics that came up. By the same token, a bunch of gruff mercenaries should be expected to make some sort of remark to an attractive female that catches their eye; a pack of housewives out on the street might comment on a sculpted warrior or well-groomed mage.

It seems to me like most of the discussion in here is about that subjective line where objectification stops being flattering and starts being offensive; and finding where that line lies.