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Beginner's Intimidation and High Standards
@Fallen-Griever - we already disqualified reviews from these criticism standards, for two reasons - A) what you said about investing your time into it, and B) reviews are naturally for the consumer's sake moreso than for the creator
Of course it has advice attached. I'm talking about how utterly useless said advice is. To the extent that the commentor already knows it's useless and has no intent to help, but still acts on their right to criticize. Nobody says "deleted after 6 minutes, thanks for nothing" with the intent of helping you as a dev, even if it COULD help you. And pretending that such a comment was meant to be helpful is idiotic.
@Kyrsty - Do you want them to scamper off? Creative skills and ideas make you a great game developer. Toughness is not a prerequisite.
@Ocean - If the goal is to make the developers better, yeah do whatever it takes: rude, nice, cutthroat, baby, whatever.
I get the vibe that the goal is more like setting a community standard and if the devs can't reach that bar, tough luck. Mentalities like "if you can't take the heat, get out of the fucking kitchen" or "if they scamper off, so be it" gives me that impression.
I'm not against meeting the bar, leave the rest behind. I'm against the people doing this while saying they're trying to be helpful. They're helping the community standard, not the individual they're criticising. I'm against the pretentiousness, not the act itself. Obviously not everyone does this, but there's enough who do to talk about it.
author=LockeZ
(Though even saying that the game concept is boring is still advice, really. The implied advice is: come up with a more interesting game concept.)
Of course it has advice attached. I'm talking about how utterly useless said advice is. To the extent that the commentor already knows it's useless and has no intent to help, but still acts on their right to criticize. Nobody says "deleted after 6 minutes, thanks for nothing" with the intent of helping you as a dev, even if it COULD help you. And pretending that such a comment was meant to be helpful is idiotic.
@Kyrsty - Do you want them to scamper off? Creative skills and ideas make you a great game developer. Toughness is not a prerequisite.
@Ocean - If the goal is to make the developers better, yeah do whatever it takes: rude, nice, cutthroat, baby, whatever.
I get the vibe that the goal is more like setting a community standard and if the devs can't reach that bar, tough luck. Mentalities like "if you can't take the heat, get out of the fucking kitchen" or "if they scamper off, so be it" gives me that impression.
I'm not against meeting the bar, leave the rest behind. I'm against the people doing this while saying they're trying to be helpful. They're helping the community standard, not the individual they're criticising. I'm against the pretentiousness, not the act itself. Obviously not everyone does this, but there's enough who do to talk about it.
Beginner's Intimidation and High Standards
author=emmychEmmych, I think you need to wrap you head around the fact that you can't control how people will react to your criticism.
I think you really need to wrap your head around the fact that you can't control what other people do.
author=emmychPeople reacting emotionally to criticism is a part of life, and you just need to deal with it.
People being dicks is a part of life, and you just need to deal with it.
It's the same thing. You're speaking from the perspective of the dev receiving criticism, I'm talking from the perspective of the critic.
There's one distinct difference. The most active users read the forums. The vast majority of users do not. You most definitely cannot create dialogue with the latter. You can 'try' to with the former, because at least they'll read it.
Stay in the perspective of discussing how the most active users should change, not how the masses should change. I agree with your belief that the average joe dev should react better, but they're not reading this. So it's pointless talking about how they should change. That's where our differences in opinions lie.
How you can't see that critic's perspective, considering that you write reviews is beyond me. Actually, now that I think about it, it's not that ironic what you're saying. Hell, that's basically the mentality I'm talking about: "whatever, I'm allowed to be a dick, your job is to react better."
That shit needs to go.
A time travel system - To the past and present.
Make a tree graph to help you track, if you haven't already.
For each branch, I'd link to some logistics notes.
It's very easy to lose track of details and produce plotholes.
I'm not doing time travel, but I have well over 200 characters in my game already, so I got all these relationship trees and word docs with all their backstories/motivations. Even an excel chart with a timeline of where they are at any given point in the game.
It sounds like fleshing out each 'time influence' separately might help you most. Putting together a structure early for your ideas goes a long way. Especially if what you're doing is complex.
For each branch, I'd link to some logistics notes.
It's very easy to lose track of details and produce plotholes.
I'm not doing time travel, but I have well over 200 characters in my game already, so I got all these relationship trees and word docs with all their backstories/motivations. Even an excel chart with a timeline of where they are at any given point in the game.
It sounds like fleshing out each 'time influence' separately might help you most. Putting together a structure early for your ideas goes a long way. Especially if what you're doing is complex.
Beginner's Intimidation and High Standards
@LockeZ - I just listed a bunch in that post. And below.
@Emmych - I'll never argue the concept of feedback. That's the point of a place like this. I'm just talking about user behavior. Social science. How the critic goes about it. Earlier in this thread, I said a critic can criticise several different ways:
A) Be helpful.
B) Be nice, but unhelpful.
C) Ignore.
D) Be an ass.
And actually, saying "nice work!" without any supplement is not useless. It's positive reinforcement in behavioral studies. Conversely, positive punishment is pretty much looked down on in optional settings. A dev is more likely to leave this optional setting (RMN) to avoid positive punishment. Because this is a hobby, and they don't have to put up with people being asses (even if it's just in their heads, they're often mistaken).
Also, the perspective of the common man is unimportant in this discussion, but they don't read this. So talking about the job of the nobody dev is useless. You can't impact their reaction to criticism or what they take from it, because they're not a part of this dialogue.
If they don't like it here, they'll leave. It's simple. The only thing that has the potential to change for the better is the behavior of the active users. You can promote an environment where more people are comfortable.
Seriously, if I quick bring up those quotes from earlier:
Why even post on their game page if this is what you're gonna say? Why? They're just being asses...
You didn't like the game, you're going to criticise, sure, okay you can be helpful, nice but unhelpful, don't post and move on, or be an ass. Guess what they picked.
After being an ass, for a person to turn around and say, NU-UH, I WAS BEING HELPFUL!! LOOK, IT'S YOUR JOB TO INTERPRET MY COMMENT! is pathetic. Even if it's true that you COULD take something from it, it doesn't make the critic any less of an ass.
.
@Emmych - I'll never argue the concept of feedback. That's the point of a place like this. I'm just talking about user behavior. Social science. How the critic goes about it. Earlier in this thread, I said a critic can criticise several different ways:
A) Be helpful.
B) Be nice, but unhelpful.
C) Ignore.
D) Be an ass.
And actually, saying "nice work!" without any supplement is not useless. It's positive reinforcement in behavioral studies. Conversely, positive punishment is pretty much looked down on in optional settings. A dev is more likely to leave this optional setting (RMN) to avoid positive punishment. Because this is a hobby, and they don't have to put up with people being asses (even if it's just in their heads, they're often mistaken).
Also, the perspective of the common man is unimportant in this discussion, but they don't read this. So talking about the job of the nobody dev is useless. You can't impact their reaction to criticism or what they take from it, because they're not a part of this dialogue.
If they don't like it here, they'll leave. It's simple. The only thing that has the potential to change for the better is the behavior of the active users. You can promote an environment where more people are comfortable.
Seriously, if I quick bring up those quotes from earlier:
author=DE
Sounds BOOORIIING!
author=Darken
This game's introduction bored me to tears.
author=JimmyLy
Only looks great. Tried the Demo too boring as it was random.
author=monstrumgod
I died on the first battle. Deleted the game. Thanks for nothing.
author=iloveflash
I played this for 6 minutes... then deleted it. What a silly way to open up a story.
Why even post on their game page if this is what you're gonna say? Why? They're just being asses...
You didn't like the game, you're going to criticise, sure, okay you can be helpful, nice but unhelpful, don't post and move on, or be an ass. Guess what they picked.
After being an ass, for a person to turn around and say, NU-UH, I WAS BEING HELPFUL!! LOOK, IT'S YOUR JOB TO INTERPRET MY COMMENT! is pathetic. Even if it's true that you COULD take something from it, it doesn't make the critic any less of an ass.
.
Beginner's Intimidation and High Standards
author=emmych
This idea of "giving criticism without fixing problems is unhelpful" is just plain laziness. I mean, if someone bakes you cookies and they come out hard as hockey pucks but you don't know what caused them to be that way, you should still mention it to the baker. Otherwise, they'll never learn! Half of being a...well a human being, is learning things. And how do you learn a lot of these things? By teaching yourself. How do you teach yourself? By figuring out that what you're doing isn't working. What's a way of figuring that out? By having someone tell you.
It is not the job of the person giving feedback to fix what is wrong with a game; it is the job of the game dev and no one else. Seriously, if a person wants to make good games, they need to not be lazy and figure that shit out on their own.
Your baker analogy is all wrong. Look at the topic "beginner's intimidation and high standards." If an expert baker tells a beginner baker "your cookies are like hockey pucks," and says nothing else, that expert baker would be an ass. Let's not forget that many of the people who make such comments here actually have an idea as to how to fix the problem.
Experienced devs can hear what they need to fix and go fix it more often. Beginners, not so much. Instead, those beginners are only going to get frustrated and many times quit.
Don't put the same standard on beginners is the point of discussion. That, and be polite.
I'm sorry I keep bringing up sports, but that's what I know. Have you ever played sports before? And been coached in sports? Say... soccer. You could play soccer for 10 years and never learn how to properly trap the ball without coaching.
Some people can learn it on their own. Others can't figure it out and need coaching. Calling those people lazy is insulting, ignorant, bushleague, horseshit, whatever else, and I'm riled up just thinking about it. Needing help is not laziness. In fact, asking for help is the greatest humility.
Bathe in that and soak it up, Emmych.
Beginner's Intimidation and High Standards
Kentona, I'm not saying people are trying to be asses.
While there are a few, most people just give their 2cents and no more, which SHOULD be fine.
The problem is that most of the time, 2 cents are not very helpful. Instead, many devs feel (mistakenly) hostility from 2 cents comments such as:
Emmy, or anyone. Tell me how this is helpful? These comments are not malicious at all. But they're certainly not helpful.
==========================================================================
LockeZ, that was a blatant lie. So blatant, I can't tell if you're joking.
I clicked around random games and screenshots to pull up for 10 minutes. Sorry to anyone I took terribly out of context.
Do not tell me this is being helpful.
Anyway, the point is that you (no one in particular, I mean in general) can reserve the right to be an ass. But don't pretend like you're not being an ass by hiding behind your right to criticize. If I ever saw a youth basketball coach tell a kid to "jump higher" when the kid is struggling with some fundamental, I'd punch that coach in the face. If you say something knowing it doesn't help, you're just being an ass. That's all.
While there are a few, most people just give their 2cents and no more, which SHOULD be fine.
The problem is that most of the time, 2 cents are not very helpful. Instead, many devs feel (mistakenly) hostility from 2 cents comments such as:
author=ChaosProductions
Bro what's with that garage
author=donline
I don't like his eye brows...
author=AznChipmunk
I agree with Tau, the pano looks alright, but the map is kind of ugly...
Emmy, or anyone. Tell me how this is helpful? These comments are not malicious at all. But they're certainly not helpful.
==========================================================================
author=LockeZ
In fact I would go so far as to say that in my year and a half at this site I don't think I have ever seen any criticism aimed at developers without advice attached.
LockeZ, that was a blatant lie. So blatant, I can't tell if you're joking.
author=DE
Sounds BOOORIIING!
author=Darken
This game's introduction bored me to tears.
author=JimmyLy
Only looks great. Tried the Demo too boring as it was random.
author=monstrumgod
I died on the first battle. Deleted the game. Thanks for nothing.
author=ThePrivateLifeOfMe
RPGMaker XP has the worst, most sterile RTP graphics in the world, and people still consistently use them.
author=iloveflash
I played this for 6 minutes... then deleted it. What a silly way to open up a story.
I clicked around random games and screenshots to pull up for 10 minutes. Sorry to anyone I took terribly out of context.
Do not tell me this is being helpful.
Anyway, the point is that you (no one in particular, I mean in general) can reserve the right to be an ass. But don't pretend like you're not being an ass by hiding behind your right to criticize. If I ever saw a youth basketball coach tell a kid to "jump higher" when the kid is struggling with some fundamental, I'd punch that coach in the face. If you say something knowing it doesn't help, you're just being an ass. That's all.
Beginner's Intimidation and High Standards
author=LockeZ
Pretty sure no one is under the impression that offering criticism without advice is helpful.
LockeZ, if those people don't think that criticism without advice is helpful, then they're just being an ass. Because that makes up a lot of the comments you see around.
I'd like to think many of those people want to be helpful and don't realize that they're not. But that's probably not the case.
how can i make an item grant a skill on equip
author=andreasaspenberg
i figured that solution out myself but i would prefer a less glitchy solution though.
what's glitchy about it? there's a slight limitation in that you have to exit the menu before parallel processes start processing - other than that, the common event check works just fine
Beginner's Intimidation and High Standards
Stratification CANNOT be a good thing. So let's move on from that.
My point is that the goal is to foster an environment and community where most any dev is comfortable participating in.
In other words, don't make it uncomfortable for them.
Just a reminder that criticism without any follow up advice is not appreciated by most people, regardless of how they react. It's really not helpful, so don't pretend that it is.
My point is that the goal is to foster an environment and community where most any dev is comfortable participating in.
In other words, don't make it uncomfortable for them.
Just a reminder that criticism without any follow up advice is not appreciated by most people, regardless of how they react. It's really not helpful, so don't pretend that it is.
Beginner's Intimidation and High Standards
author=LockeZ
No one needs to quit, they just need to get better.
I look at it like a public gym. Like weightlifting or basketball, whichever.
There's always gonna be regulars who are really good, flying around dunking the ball or nailing fade away jumpers.
And there's always gonna be people who absolutely suck, airballing freethrows etc. Usually these people are off by a corner hoop away from the pickup games.
As the better baller, you really could do a couple things with this person, hell say it's a kid.
A.) Give him some pointers. However, "I don't like your shooting form. Fix it." is not advice. If someone said this, the kid's more likely to get annoyed than fix his form. See where I'm going with this?
B.) Ignore him. Not bothering you. (Now this is what most people do on this site. But there's enough people who go around saying useless demoralizing crap. It only takes a few or even one.)
C.) Be an ass. (Very uncommon, and already unacceptable.)
@Lockez - Can you really blame the kid if he quits coming to the gym when someone picks on him, or even if he just FEELS like someone's picking on him? He's not no obligation to go to the gym. He goes cause he wants to play ball.
If it's not fun to him, he won't come back. This isn't a question of fault. The point of discussion is that you want to foster an environment where people feel like coming back.
This means you need to recognize two things: how people act, and how people react.
How people act: lots of people jump on a game page and make comments similar to "I don't like your shooting form. Fix it." Why? Because explaining how to fix it in a way that the dev can accomplish takes more effort.
How people react: lots of devs hear things that they find discouraging, even when they weren't meant to be discouraging.
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