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Trihan
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CloseIt wasn't vital to the game progressing, so no point in reinstating it.
I still want to know what rule you're judging this on, because I don't see any rules that stop you voting nay for your own proposals.
In fact, my first proposal was going to be one that automatically treats a proposal as an implicit yea by the person posting it (a quality-of-life change so people don't have to keep making proposals then remembering to vote in favour of them) but thanks to this and some people gaming the system a bit my first proposal is going to be a bit more of a gamechanger. :)
I still want to know what rule you're judging this on, because I don't see any rules that stop you voting nay for your own proposals.
In fact, my first proposal was going to be one that automatically treats a proposal as an implicit yea by the person posting it (a quality-of-life change so people don't have to keep making proposals then remembering to vote in favour of them) but thanks to this and some people gaming the system a bit my first proposal is going to be a bit more of a gamechanger. :)
Shinan
4314
We can overrule the judge with a unanimous vote (which won't happen because lockez wants his points)
Incidentally, I'm going to take a leaf from DrOctopus's hymn sheet and change my vote to nay before meustrus makes a ruling (I feel it would be disingenuous for me to do it afterwards since that will end the turn and I could theoretically game my own system by changing it before I make the end-of-turn post. I'm doing this so I can't be considered to have cheated to gain points)
Sorry, I should have said "explains his ruling" rather than "makes a ruling"; I know meustrus has ruled that Shinan can't vote against his own proposal, but I want clarification before I continue the game.
Shinan
4314
I would like to invoke judgement, asking where it says we can change our votes after voting...
also 211, does that mean that a majority of players have to agree with the judgement (for play to proceed), but a unanimous opinion is required to change the judge?
also 211, does that mean that a majority of players have to agree with the judgement (for play to proceed), but a unanimous opinion is required to change the judge?
I point again to 116 which says I can do whatever the hell I want if a rule doesn't prohibit it, and there's no rule stating we can't change our votes after voting (there is one stating that we only have one vote, but I've only been using one vote. It just happens that I was voting one way and now want to vote another)
You're right about 211; a majority has to vote to continue play, but everyone has to vote to overrule meustrus' ruling. If meustrus' ruling is overruled, LockeZ becomes the Judge. Interestingly, if meustrus had allowed that you could vote against your own proposal, LockeZ would have found it in his best interest to overrule that so he could force it the other way and still get his points for this turn.
You're right about 211; a majority has to vote to continue play, but everyone has to vote to overrule meustrus' ruling. If meustrus' ruling is overruled, LockeZ becomes the Judge. Interestingly, if meustrus had allowed that you could vote against your own proposal, LockeZ would have found it in his best interest to overrule that so he could force it the other way and still get his points for this turn.
And yeah, meustrus also has to decide on whether I can change my vote after voting or not since he's still Judge.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Disagreement for the purposes of invoking a judge can be created by the insistence of any player, so Shinan can certainly question Trihan's ability to change his vote. Meustrus is still the judge until the end of this turn.
I never said Shinan couldn't question my ability to change my vote. I don't think anyone said otherwise, LockeZ.
meustrus
30
Sorry about editing my post. I thought I could do it quickly enough that nobody would see the first version. I'll try to look things over more carefully before posting next time ;)
Anyway it doesn't really matter anymore whether Shinan can vote against his own proposal. So to avoid more protracted discussion, I'll just say it's allowed.
As for changing votes, it is not specifically disallowed, and in particular Rule 302 made provision at least for voting to continue until each player places a "final vote". So Trihan is indeed allowed to change his vote as long as the turn isn't over.
Incidentally I am voting nay on this proposal. So as long as a majority consents to continuing to the next round per rule 211, it's time to calculate points (Shinan loses 10 points and gains 2, for a net -8 points) and move on to TangledLion's turn.
Anyway it doesn't really matter anymore whether Shinan can vote against his own proposal. So to avoid more protracted discussion, I'll just say it's allowed.
As for changing votes, it is not specifically disallowed, and in particular Rule 302 made provision at least for voting to continue until each player places a "final vote". So Trihan is indeed allowed to change his vote as long as the turn isn't over.
Incidentally I am voting nay on this proposal. So as long as a majority consents to continuing to the next round per rule 211, it's time to calculate points (Shinan loses 10 points and gains 2, for a net -8 points) and move on to TangledLion's turn.
I am satisfied with this outcome.
We need a majority to vote for continuing play before we can continue. I'm taking meustrus' desire to move on as an implicit yea vote, and I vote yea, so we need two more votes.
We need a majority to vote for continuing play before we can continue. I'm taking meustrus' desire to move on as an implicit yea vote, and I vote yea, so we need two more votes.
meustrus
30
Also I edited that one post again to have both versions (as closely as I can recall) in case anyone wants to see what Trihan saw. Heh. I wonder if you'd be demanding the rule I based it on if you hadn't seen that.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, let's move on.
I would have asked you to clarify which rule you were using for your judgement regardless of what you'd posted other than "Shinan can't vote against his own proposal." :)
TangledLion
618
Well, I only Voted Nay for points, So I Hereby alter my vote to Yay and sacrifice desperate points for the good of all.
Also, I notice that this big fiasco is the direct result of there being no upside to voting Yay, Thus I propose we Amend Rule 202 in order to fix this. I have bolded Altered aspects of the rule for ease of Recognition.
305. Amendment to rule 202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) subtracting 291 from the ordinal number of the proposal and multiplying the result by the fraction of favourable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. In the event the proposal is passed, this number is awarded to all advocates of the proposal in question, and double of this number is awarded to the play who suggested this proposal.
The scoring effects of this rule take effect on the exact turn of it's passing.
Eventually, this will mean voting FOR a rule, is much more Favorable than voting AGAINST it.
Also, I notice that this big fiasco is the direct result of there being no upside to voting Yay, Thus I propose we Amend Rule 202 in order to fix this. I have bolded Altered aspects of the rule for ease of Recognition.
305. Amendment to rule 202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) subtracting 291 from the ordinal number of the proposal and multiplying the result by the fraction of favourable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. In the event the proposal is passed, this number is awarded to all advocates of the proposal in question, and double of this number is awarded to the play who suggested this proposal.
The scoring effects of this rule take effect on the exact turn of it's passing.
Eventually, this will mean voting FOR a rule, is much more Favorable than voting AGAINST it.
Technically speaking you should have voted to continue the game and waited for me to confirm it was your turn before posting your proposal, but I will take your willingness to post a proposal as implicit assent to continue.
Now that I'm toting up the points, I just noticed that meustrus never actually voted for or against the proposal; since it has 2 yea votes it's actually possible for Shinan's proposal to pass, so we'll need to get his vote before I can continue with your turn, TL.
Now that I'm toting up the points, I just noticed that meustrus never actually voted for or against the proposal; since it has 2 yea votes it's actually possible for Shinan's proposal to pass, so we'll need to get his vote before I can continue with your turn, TL.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Meustrus did vote against the proposal here.
You're right, I missed that.
Okay, proposal 304 fails spectacularly.
Shinan gains 13 * 0.33 = 4.29 (4 rounded down) points, then loses 10 for the proposal failing, for a net loss of 6 points.
TangledLion's turn, and he already posted his proposal.
It gives people a reason to vote in favour of proposals, so I support it.
Okay, proposal 304 fails spectacularly.
Shinan gains 13 * 0.33 = 4.29 (4 rounded down) points, then loses 10 for the proposal failing, for a net loss of 6 points.
TangledLion's turn, and he already posted his proposal.
It gives people a reason to vote in favour of proposals, so I support it.
