CLEST'S PROFILE

author=GreatRedSpirit link=topic=2479.msg45491#msg45491 date=1227058993
You're right, the Floating Continent and the Zio fight weren't bad fake-Final Dungeons (although I'll argue the others if it wouldn't be a huge derail). I think one of the things that helped is that in both cases (well, not sure with PS4) is that the world has been explored by that point and there wasn't any other hanging plot threads. They do somewhat break up under close scrutiny (There sure were a lot of missing spells in FF6! How do I unlock those last Hunter missions in PS4?) but they serve their purpose well.

Well the idea here is not exactly to make the player believe faithfully that the fake final dungeon is the final dungeon (though the Magitek Facility and Crescent Island really got me, by the Floating Continent I was already lacking the belief :P) but the tension must be built equally for several points in the game. As a friend said in a Phantasy Star forum once "what is good in PSIV is the constant sense of urgency". Like "damn we must kill Zio to restore Nurvous, oops now we must restore Zelan too, not really, Kuran is the problem" and so on...
Guess I exagerated on the way I mentioned deceiving me into think each dungeon is last :P
It is more like what I said for regular battles: Rather than focusing so mucxh energy to make the last dungeon seem important, make it place (cities too) seem equally vital and important.


As for characters letting the villain do whatever, FF7 bad player character death scene is there as a classic example. I could see Cloud, retarded as he is, being stunned, but no fucking way Barret would just wait there in the back, he´d be firing bullets away madly ;)

HEY Asa made NUKELAND and it rocked :D

author=GreatRedSpirit link=topic=2479.msg45345#msg45345 date=1227028693

author=Clest link=topic=2479.msg45321#msg45321 date=1227020334
-I usually hate last dungeons: If the game is bad I know the ending already and I will be too lazy to level up for the most dificult and probably boring dungeon.

If game is good I may just get depressed that my wonderful adventure is going to end...

Best ways to solve this: Don´t let me know it is the last dungeon, make previous dungeons seem like they would be the last to the point I stop believing when characters say "this will be our last battle" and of course, store a lot of unsolved things for the end and let them all hanging for the whole game, the ending is the time for answers, not before the last dungeons as Square loves to do. If I have all the answers I can basically predict the ending.

If there's a bunch of fake final battles, how would you make the player feel like he's making progress? I'd probably be fustrated at a game that went "Final dungeon! Oh sorry the boss is in another castle/The boss ran away after you beat up on him/PLOT TWIST A challenger appears! Go hunt him down and kill him". I can see the deception of a fake final dungeon working once in a game with good plot reasons, but beyond that I think it would annoy the player more. Plus if its the first fake final dungeon, how do you know its fake and not cause the "I don't want to finish the game"?

Using a dungeon that the player doesn't know is the final dungeon also hurts. There's little to no buildup of the final battle and it can cause an abrupt end to the game that can make players feel like they're hanging or the victims of "Well there was this story and then it suddenly ended" kinda like KotoR2 (although that was more "Final dungeon but it really fucking sucks")

Well, it is all a matter of execution, fake final dungeons were used in many RPGs before with sucess (FF6 did it A LOT of times... Magitek Facility, then Ester World gate, then Crescent Island then Floating Continent... The game essentially kept you always ready for a final confront once you get the fast travel means (airship).

Phantasy Star 4 does that a lot too and in very conving ways and that was always good when you saw a cutscene thinking it was the ending but then BAM new disaster, what he hell happened? let´s find out! Far better than "okay, the villain is there but we need to collet those things and find X weapon to defeat him."

As for the last dungeon being a surprise, I get what you mean, but again it comes with execution and ties in with your complaint about dungeons: It should be a very dense event dungeon with many things leading to a climax, just that unless you feel like going out for something else, you are already there and the last boss should be in a room near you, meaning that if you are already there, you are probably ready for the boss too.

Note that in my idea, the ending should be also interactive, you just see the scenes by trigering then (aside from what happens quite shortly after boss dies) with that you can still do quest or have some optional dungeons and small things you might want to know about how ppl and the world are doing after all hell broke loose and then you put things back on place :P

Really? Me wants cake now u.u

Looking for a place other than GW (no hate towards GW, just can´t feel motivated to post there) where most of my old buddies from RM hang out, and here is paradise. Main point is to talk about game making obviously.