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Ciel finally bites and makes a topic
Extra Credit: Are you a good Designer?
This is like a guidebook on where you can focus to improve yourself and tips on common pitfalls.
It also addresses a lot of what I felt were common RM community issues:
1. The importance of the concept of the game
2. The "designer" is a director (Needed for project: Scripter, Artist, Spriter, Writer, Mapper, Databaser, I'm the concept guy so I'll just tell you all what to do and we'll have a great game!)
3. Changing scope and it's effect on ever getting things done (cost of time/money; time is the 'currency' we hobbyists use most)
4. What other practical skills should be sharpened to help answer questions like "How do I build this platforming level?" or "How should I map this dungeon? What kinds of puzzles should I use?"
5. The 'designer' of the game is the one who masterminds the whole game (when you're the designer, artist, musician, and mapper this is hard to identify with - in our community many of us are jacks-of-many-trades, so we don't understand what working with a team really entails)
6. Communication and working with team - too often the more people you have the less change of a project being completed (I've seen many cases where someone, usually artist or programmer, was 'kicked' or 'left' the team because they didn't agree with the designers decisions on how their skills should be applied - they want and deserve a say in the design by having some free will as well but don't get it)
Past the tips that are like giant "Damn, it's so obvious yet it's one of the most common screw-ups in our RM communities" section, the skills listed are things that are important when you're 'designing' a game - I researched music a bit more and learned about melody lines and tones and I'm realizing just how much there is to music I didn't know (I knew there was a lot, but there's a lot of practical knowledge there that lets you make better decision.)
Just knowing about those and what they are has made a huge impact on my ability to choose music; I now know when to pick a song with a powerful melody line and how to identify what music is better for times where I want the music to NOT stand out in the players mind.
A lot probably shrugged off the psychology aspect there, but check out how visible (I wouldn't say popular!) Calunio's games became with their strong psychology focus and soul-rending game-play themes. That stuff isn't accidental.
See, we all think we're great designers, but there is so much there we can still learn - yet we try so hard to close our eyes to all of it.
And all to often even if we know what we should do, we lose sight of it and get bogged down in the moment and end up forgetting or glossing over important things.
Most of us can't take criticism for a damn, rarely finish anything, don't play test outside our friends (if at all), and use the excuse of "it's not the finished product" when we show demos. When we're faced with an opportunity to learn we nitpick and make excuses instead of trying to grow.
If you didn't immediately see at last 3-4 things you could improve about your design aspects from that video, then you're so amazing you don't belong in the RM community - go make AAA games or at least move on to more experienced and main-stream game development site, you'll be a prodigy there.
It also addresses a lot of what I felt were common RM community issues:
1. The importance of the concept of the game
2. The "designer" is a director (Needed for project: Scripter, Artist, Spriter, Writer, Mapper, Databaser, I'm the concept guy so I'll just tell you all what to do and we'll have a great game!)
3. Changing scope and it's effect on ever getting things done (cost of time/money; time is the 'currency' we hobbyists use most)
4. What other practical skills should be sharpened to help answer questions like "How do I build this platforming level?" or "How should I map this dungeon? What kinds of puzzles should I use?"
5. The 'designer' of the game is the one who masterminds the whole game (when you're the designer, artist, musician, and mapper this is hard to identify with - in our community many of us are jacks-of-many-trades, so we don't understand what working with a team really entails)
6. Communication and working with team - too often the more people you have the less change of a project being completed (I've seen many cases where someone, usually artist or programmer, was 'kicked' or 'left' the team because they didn't agree with the designers decisions on how their skills should be applied - they want and deserve a say in the design by having some free will as well but don't get it)
Past the tips that are like giant "Damn, it's so obvious yet it's one of the most common screw-ups in our RM communities" section, the skills listed are things that are important when you're 'designing' a game - I researched music a bit more and learned about melody lines and tones and I'm realizing just how much there is to music I didn't know (I knew there was a lot, but there's a lot of practical knowledge there that lets you make better decision.)
Just knowing about those and what they are has made a huge impact on my ability to choose music; I now know when to pick a song with a powerful melody line and how to identify what music is better for times where I want the music to NOT stand out in the players mind.
A lot probably shrugged off the psychology aspect there, but check out how visible (I wouldn't say popular!) Calunio's games became with their strong psychology focus and soul-rending game-play themes. That stuff isn't accidental.
See, we all think we're great designers, but there is so much there we can still learn - yet we try so hard to close our eyes to all of it.
And all to often even if we know what we should do, we lose sight of it and get bogged down in the moment and end up forgetting or glossing over important things.
Most of us can't take criticism for a damn, rarely finish anything, don't play test outside our friends (if at all), and use the excuse of "it's not the finished product" when we show demos. When we're faced with an opportunity to learn we nitpick and make excuses instead of trying to grow.
If you didn't immediately see at last 3-4 things you could improve about your design aspects from that video, then you're so amazing you don't belong in the RM community - go make AAA games or at least move on to more experienced and main-stream game development site, you'll be a prodigy there.
Challenge, hidden or outspoken?
EDIT: Old post removed due to it not relating to the topic, as noted by Darken.
Okay, sorry, I had to reread that a couple times to figure out you weren't using examples of kinds of challenges, but if the player should be notified of the challenge requirements (right?)
Do they get to try the challenge repeatedly? If it's "one shot only" I definitely would want to know (you wouldn't know what to focus on otherwise.)
If they can try later, I'd say don't tell them the first time and only display the requirements after the first go-through so they focus more on the dungeon and gameplay than the challenge.
If they only get one shot you might want to considering having a way for them to "re-challenge" - I'd hate to pass up cool items/loot and often when I find I've missed out I'll replay a level to get it. If it gets too frustrating I'll stop playing the game because I WANT that stuff and it's frustrating to try and get it.
Okay, sorry, I had to reread that a couple times to figure out you weren't using examples of kinds of challenges, but if the player should be notified of the challenge requirements (right?)
Do they get to try the challenge repeatedly? If it's "one shot only" I definitely would want to know (you wouldn't know what to focus on otherwise.)
If they can try later, I'd say don't tell them the first time and only display the requirements after the first go-through so they focus more on the dungeon and gameplay than the challenge.
If they only get one shot you might want to considering having a way for them to "re-challenge" - I'd hate to pass up cool items/loot and often when I find I've missed out I'll replay a level to get it. If it gets too frustrating I'll stop playing the game because I WANT that stuff and it's frustrating to try and get it.
Topic Control: Enforce discussion?
I don't really want to speak for the moderators, but I would assume they have their hands full QAing all the entries that come into the site.
Maybe there's a reason the normal threads aren't moderated, I assumed because of the level of context and our general "self managed" community (I've seen this referenced multiple times) - if they're supposed to be moderating the actual discussion before it devolves into something to move to the Moronic I've never really seen that done.
Maybe there's a reason the normal threads aren't moderated, I assumed because of the level of context and our general "self managed" community (I've seen this referenced multiple times) - if they're supposed to be moderating the actual discussion before it devolves into something to move to the Moronic I've never really seen that done.
Topic Control: Enforce discussion?
@Feld:
A flag/report button requires a moderator to look at it and decide; I don't want to speak for them but that's a lot of effort and they would need to read longer threads sometimes to decide if something was relevant, not to mention then the complaints stack on them.
If someone keeps being a jerk and deleting comments, people won't comment on their threads. The punishment for stupidity is applied to the OP or the posting person (respectively) instead of the moderators. (And consistent abuse would be easy for a moderator to catch and warn/ban as appropriate.)
@Craze:
If the flagging system was just to let a Moderator know, then see above.
If it's a threshold system where "X" flags means it gets hidden and a moderator is warned, see above and then consider that you're putting the power right back into the hands of the people posting.
If people abuse power by making a thread and destroying it themselves, they'll get ignored and it's easy for moderators to warn/ban that person since the history is pretty clear. (Especially if posts are "hidden" when deleted.)
---------------------
I mean ideally a way for people to flag a thread because the OP is being a jerk would be nice, but that's a lot of functionality that could be added if things start to pan out.
A flag/report button requires a moderator to look at it and decide; I don't want to speak for them but that's a lot of effort and they would need to read longer threads sometimes to decide if something was relevant, not to mention then the complaints stack on them.
If someone keeps being a jerk and deleting comments, people won't comment on their threads. The punishment for stupidity is applied to the OP or the posting person (respectively) instead of the moderators. (And consistent abuse would be easy for a moderator to catch and warn/ban as appropriate.)
@Craze:
If the flagging system was just to let a Moderator know, then see above.
If it's a threshold system where "X" flags means it gets hidden and a moderator is warned, see above and then consider that you're putting the power right back into the hands of the people posting.
If people abuse power by making a thread and destroying it themselves, they'll get ignored and it's easy for moderators to warn/ban that person since the history is pretty clear. (Especially if posts are "hidden" when deleted.)
---------------------
I mean ideally a way for people to flag a thread because the OP is being a jerk would be nice, but that's a lot of functionality that could be added if things start to pan out.
Topic Control: Enforce discussion?
@tardis/GRS:
1. Could easily be put on a test forum and not put on all the currently active ones.
2. If "Anaryu" has the power to ruin my thread, why can't I have the power to do something about it? The power to remove threads is there, it's just in the wrong hands.
3. Derailed/trolled threads are not the kind of 'evolution' of discussion that is going to draw in new people - it's a vet system that rewards those who enjoy playing the trolling game with each other.
@Craze:
1. I like the idea but it doesn't work when the general community won't flag things because it's the "in thing" to join in on the "fun," it would also become a new way for topics to be ruined as people who don't like the idea abuse it in groups to get it removed.
1. Could easily be put on a test forum and not put on all the currently active ones.
2. If "Anaryu" has the power to ruin my thread, why can't I have the power to do something about it? The power to remove threads is there, it's just in the wrong hands.
3. Derailed/trolled threads are not the kind of 'evolution' of discussion that is going to draw in new people - it's a vet system that rewards those who enjoy playing the trolling game with each other.
@Craze:
1. I like the idea but it doesn't work when the general community won't flag things because it's the "in thing" to join in on the "fun," it would also become a new way for topics to be ruined as people who don't like the idea abuse it in groups to get it removed.
Topic Control: Enforce discussion?
author=Lennon
This is actually a really good idea. Highly abusable, but like you said, it would be obvious if people were abusing it. Maybe have the ability for Mods to remove a user's privilege to do this if they abuse it?
I think a mod just throwing those topics into Moronic and warning them and taking action if it continues (ie. what we do now!) would work. So basically the same moderation we're already using!
Extra Credit: Are you a good Designer?
I'm going to go ahead and start this off by listing what I gained from this:
Although I've created a LOT of projects, I think over time I've started to lose site of the real basics. Being a programmer by nature, the design aspect never felt defined enough that I had what many of us logic-thinkers like; some kind of standard or checklist to make sure we're not forgetting anything!
This article has pointed out to me some things I've taken years to learn that I identified with from just one watching:
1. I need to be more focused on the implementation rather than the fancy systems.
2. The implementation your users experience is your true product, regardless of how amazing it was in your eyes or technically or even to the eyes of those that helped and tested from day one.
3. I have a lot of areas I'm still very weak in and need more help recognizing those faults as they're non-existent from my 'camera angle'
It also pointed out a lot of specifics that I didn't really understand before:
1. How important the basic psychology behind the idea and presentation is.
2. How I should be working with my other team members.
3. The idea is pointless and ideas really are a dime a dozen.
4. The people I work with should have more say, if I try to guide it too hard myself I'm ruining the experience.
5. The more work I do, the more I need unrelated others to test and give me feedback.
6. Again: I am the worst judge of my own games. :)
7. Music. I don't know it, understand it, or know anyone who does!
So post your own thoughts!
NOTE: If you can't list things you learned from this and what you need to start applying, I think maybe you should watch it a few more times and get some thoughts from close, personal friends.
EDIT: Added music to my weakness list thanks to kentona reminding me; also, would be cool to build a list from that video for use here, I might do that later today.
Although I've created a LOT of projects, I think over time I've started to lose site of the real basics. Being a programmer by nature, the design aspect never felt defined enough that I had what many of us logic-thinkers like; some kind of standard or checklist to make sure we're not forgetting anything!
This article has pointed out to me some things I've taken years to learn that I identified with from just one watching:
1. I need to be more focused on the implementation rather than the fancy systems.
2. The implementation your users experience is your true product, regardless of how amazing it was in your eyes or technically or even to the eyes of those that helped and tested from day one.
3. I have a lot of areas I'm still very weak in and need more help recognizing those faults as they're non-existent from my 'camera angle'
It also pointed out a lot of specifics that I didn't really understand before:
1. How important the basic psychology behind the idea and presentation is.
2. How I should be working with my other team members.
3. The idea is pointless and ideas really are a dime a dozen.
4. The people I work with should have more say, if I try to guide it too hard myself I'm ruining the experience.
5. The more work I do, the more I need unrelated others to test and give me feedback.
6. Again: I am the worst judge of my own games. :)
7. Music. I don't know it, understand it, or know anyone who does!
So post your own thoughts!
NOTE: If you can't list things you learned from this and what you need to start applying, I think maybe you should watch it a few more times and get some thoughts from close, personal friends.
EDIT: Added music to my weakness list thanks to kentona reminding me; also, would be cool to build a list from that video for use here, I might do that later today.
Topic Control: Enforce discussion?
I wondered if there could be a serious board where discussion on a topic would be welcome and enforced not by the moderators, but by the person posting the thread.
Right now there's no real control over who/what gets posted, so snarky one-liners and irrelevant side-fights derail threads faster than any outstanding, solid discussion can grow.
One of the cornerstones of user-managed content is how proper internal moderation can work around the haters, trolls, and people who think they're funny.
My suggestion: If the person who posted a topic could remove posts that they feel are off topic or unnecessary, I think discussion would be more productive.
Yes, this is HIGHLY abusable; but that abuse will weed itself out. If "Anaryu" constantly deleted posts because they didn't agree with him, that discussion would only be interesting to the shallow types of people who thrive on that; the people who are actually serious and interested will avoid it and eventually future threads by that same user.
Conversely the removal of the snarky lines and internal side-battles that emerge keep a post clean and takes away that temptation to respond to their nasty little call-outs that take even the more productive people and involve them in said flame war.
Thoughts?
Right now there's no real control over who/what gets posted, so snarky one-liners and irrelevant side-fights derail threads faster than any outstanding, solid discussion can grow.
One of the cornerstones of user-managed content is how proper internal moderation can work around the haters, trolls, and people who think they're funny.
My suggestion: If the person who posted a topic could remove posts that they feel are off topic or unnecessary, I think discussion would be more productive.
Yes, this is HIGHLY abusable; but that abuse will weed itself out. If "Anaryu" constantly deleted posts because they didn't agree with him, that discussion would only be interesting to the shallow types of people who thrive on that; the people who are actually serious and interested will avoid it and eventually future threads by that same user.
Conversely the removal of the snarky lines and internal side-battles that emerge keep a post clean and takes away that temptation to respond to their nasty little call-outs that take even the more productive people and involve them in said flame war.
Thoughts?
Extra Credit: Are you a good Designer?
I was linked to a site earlier today by Silviera, the site is a weekly posting of videos about the game design field.
Go forth and listen!
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits
In particular, this one really stuck me as one we should all watch and take to heart; both new designers and old:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2443-So-You-Want-to-be-a-Game-Designer
In this thread it would be ideal to discuss the "So You Want to be a Game Designer" - would be interesting to see people's thoughts on how it relates to each of us.
EDIT: I think it goes without saying that by "relates to each of us" I mean ourselves - comments about how someone else has problem A isn't going to help anything.
Go forth and listen!
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits
In particular, this one really stuck me as one we should all watch and take to heart; both new designers and old:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2443-So-You-Want-to-be-a-Game-Designer
In this thread it would be ideal to discuss the "So You Want to be a Game Designer" - would be interesting to see people's thoughts on how it relates to each of us.
EDIT: I think it goes without saying that by "relates to each of us" I mean ourselves - comments about how someone else has problem A isn't going to help anything.
Games - Tester
Games - Other
