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Taking flight
So by school you mean the school for making awesome games right? If so, you have already graduated.
Best of luck to you. I'd like to know what you're going to school for, so when you have 30 seconds of spare time come reply!
Best of luck to you. I'd like to know what you're going to school for, so when you have 30 seconds of spare time come reply!
Honest Challenge, and Positive Reinforcement
author=Max McGee link=topic=3052.msg60192#msg60192 date=1233618076You're pretty good at RPGs, so I can see why you thought this. I haven't played through the latest Starless Umbra release, so I'm not sure how it stands. But I dunno, generally the beginning of any game is pretty easy (except like Fallout 3 where it's reverse). Add that to how good you are at RM and just RPGs in general and that is probably the reason why you thought it was pretty easy. Like I said though, it's been awhile since I've played the game so who knows.
I think you're missing the point. I never died in Starless Umbra AT ALL and that is why I quit. I'm not advocating for punishing the player for dying; save points should be plentiful, and located AFTER long cutscenes. But it should be at least POSSIBLE to die.
And no, Braid is awesome.
Honest Challenge, and Positive Reinforcement
It's perfectly fine to die because of something challenging Max, but it's not okay if you die and have the punishment of going through a long cutscene again or fighting the 3 mini bosses before you get to the real boss again. If this scenario happened in Starless Umbra, would that somehow make the game more fun because you died and had to redo pointless things?
The player has already passed that scene or those other bosses, why make them go through it again? They already proved that they were capable of handling everything until that last battle (which can still be challenging, that's okay). I don't think anybody wants to play a game that is really really easy since most of us here are pretty skilled, but there are a lot of things that just don't seem necessary when trying to add difficulty.
The game Anaryu mentioned reminds me of Spelunky. It's a VERY hard game and it actually punishes you by taking you back to the first level of the game if you die. But it is so easy to get back into the game since it literally takes 3 seconds to select your level and try again. The challenge of the game also comes from most of the players actions, most accidents that happen in the game are really the players fault.
No matter how good your game is, if you can't let the player get right back to the action of where they were, they WILL shut it off because of the frustration. This is almost guaranteed.
The player has already passed that scene or those other bosses, why make them go through it again? They already proved that they were capable of handling everything until that last battle (which can still be challenging, that's okay). I don't think anybody wants to play a game that is really really easy since most of us here are pretty skilled, but there are a lot of things that just don't seem necessary when trying to add difficulty.
The game Anaryu mentioned reminds me of Spelunky. It's a VERY hard game and it actually punishes you by taking you back to the first level of the game if you die. But it is so easy to get back into the game since it literally takes 3 seconds to select your level and try again. The challenge of the game also comes from most of the players actions, most accidents that happen in the game are really the players fault.
No matter how good your game is, if you can't let the player get right back to the action of where they were, they WILL shut it off because of the frustration. This is almost guaranteed.
Honest Challenge, and Positive Reinforcement
I agree, mostly because of this quote alone. Thanks for that article, Shinan!
Now this is something that everyone should take note of. Like the articles and Shadowtext said, punishment is basically on one side of the field by itself, while all the good features that you could be missing out on are on the other side. By putting in punishment, the risk of losing all other aspects of the game increases. I see it too many times these days when the creator of a game will say that their game gets better after *insert place here*. I don't know why some would even say that, since they're basically creating an obstacle for the player to overcome just to get to the good stuff. I don't think this has to do with real difficulty of a game though, because a game can still be difficult while keeping things open for all players. The main issue is just the punishment, like setbacks. Punishments and setbacks absolutely kill amateur games, because the players attention span is ridiculously short. So if they have to sit through that 5 minute cutscene again, they probably won't do it.
So yeah, I don't think it's about playing through games like they're a breeze or anything. It's more along the lines of coming across something that's unnecessarily difficult or punishes you because the developer can't think of any other way to keep the player interested.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts Shadowtext. There was nothing I really disagreed on. People should take note of these things.
But failure (in-game death, penalties, setbacks, and so on) stops every other type of player from having fun. They stop seeing new things. They stop having new conversations. The story stops. The sense of accomplishment stops. The spectacle stops. They stop experiencing new dialog, scenery, plot developments, new characters, new jokes, new foes to conquer, and all the other things that might have been entertaining them. All they have left is this single challenge.
Now this is something that everyone should take note of. Like the articles and Shadowtext said, punishment is basically on one side of the field by itself, while all the good features that you could be missing out on are on the other side. By putting in punishment, the risk of losing all other aspects of the game increases. I see it too many times these days when the creator of a game will say that their game gets better after *insert place here*. I don't know why some would even say that, since they're basically creating an obstacle for the player to overcome just to get to the good stuff. I don't think this has to do with real difficulty of a game though, because a game can still be difficult while keeping things open for all players. The main issue is just the punishment, like setbacks. Punishments and setbacks absolutely kill amateur games, because the players attention span is ridiculously short. So if they have to sit through that 5 minute cutscene again, they probably won't do it.
So yeah, I don't think it's about playing through games like they're a breeze or anything. It's more along the lines of coming across something that's unnecessarily difficult or punishes you because the developer can't think of any other way to keep the player interested.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts Shadowtext. There was nothing I really disagreed on. People should take note of these things.
Map Design Fun #7: Time to take things in a new, odd direction!
Hey guys, this topic could be A LOT better if it didn't limit things to one chipset. I don't know how it's really your own design since they are all going to look similar and everyone is using the same chipset. It also limits the maker to just RPG Maker and none of the other ones like XP or VX. There's no originality here except using overlays and tints as workarounds.
There is so much more to map design than this. Having the freedom to design based on what the concept of a map is in your head is one of them. I would scrap limiting things to chipsets and just set it to THEMES. It allows more freedom and will make better products come out of it. I absolutely hate when you have to be set on a really bad chipset that somebody compiled. It sucks!
Just my 2 cents, because I know 90% of the community doesn't get into these things because of how limited they are.
I have hated every chipset posted here, so that is also why.
There is so much more to map design than this. Having the freedom to design based on what the concept of a map is in your head is one of them. I would scrap limiting things to chipsets and just set it to THEMES. It allows more freedom and will make better products come out of it. I absolutely hate when you have to be set on a really bad chipset that somebody compiled. It sucks!
Just my 2 cents, because I know 90% of the community doesn't get into these things because of how limited they are.
I have hated every chipset posted here, so that is also why.
What RM games are you playing right now?
Tara's Adventure and my game.
Haha I play like 3 games a year. I am terrible.
I think all the bad games burned me out. :(
Haha I play like 3 games a year. I am terrible.
I think all the bad games burned me out. :(
New Enterbrain Maker - Action Game Maker!
author=Fallen-Griever link=topic=1867.msg58780#msg58780 date=1233139921No way dude. Are you really comparing those two programs, which just do basic editing for images to Adobe Programs, which certain full time jobs revolve around?
For instance, The GIMP and Paint.net do nearly everything Photoshop can do and they're both free. Open Office does nearly everything MS Office can do and it is also free. Etcetera.
For you, yes GIMP and Paint.net are fine. But you need to realize that those programs literally cover 1% of the programs like Photoshop or Illustrator. I think the problem you have is that you just don't like paying large amounts of money for something you can't even see, no matter how good it really is.
New Enterbrain Maker - Action Game Maker!
Not many games have engines written specifcally for them, Fallen-Griever!
$115 isn't that much money when you compare it to other professional computer software. Adobe programs cost way more than this, and the amount of use and value these programs get are almost unparalleled. You can not compare that to a video game. When you add the price of this and a year subscription to the Microsoft XNA Creator's Club, it's about $200. That really isn't much though, especially if you're going to be putting your game out to the the Xbox Marketplace. You'll be spending much more money on the other aspects of the video game than just the price of the software.
Coding for AGM will most likely be C# since that is the framework for XNA.
$115 isn't that much money when you compare it to other professional computer software. Adobe programs cost way more than this, and the amount of use and value these programs get are almost unparalleled. You can not compare that to a video game. When you add the price of this and a year subscription to the Microsoft XNA Creator's Club, it's about $200. That really isn't much though, especially if you're going to be putting your game out to the the Xbox Marketplace. You'll be spending much more money on the other aspects of the video game than just the price of the software.
Coding for AGM will most likely be C# since that is the framework for XNA.
Screenshot Schmeenshot
Yeah the mapping is some of the best I've seen. It's a shame the chipset isn't that good. Somebody just opened that chipset up in idraw or another paint program and just plastered everything white (with color loss, though that could be because it's a .jpg). I would also connect the paths more and not extend them to places where nothing exists, because I'm not fond of randomly placing road tiles as if they were grass.
But the map gave me an idea of my own, so I am liking it!
But the map gave me an idea of my own, so I am liking it!
The Dragon's Hoard (wip article)
It's a little too short right now, so I can't comment much. It's very interesting, though. But it would be great if you could expand on the optional rewards, rather than just things you absolutely have to do to progress (like the boss example). A good example would be a game where you can go to a guild and pick up some optional quests for your journey that will reward you. I guess that is covered under quest rewards, maybe? Or maybe when a player goes beyond the expectation, and does something incredible. Minigames are a good example of this. Some racing games reward you for beating the top time in a time trial, or getting first place in every race. Action games like to do the "Complete the level without getting hit" thing. I'd like to see good examples of this, but in an RPG formula.
I think the big question though is how to get the player motivated to do these things. Your mini boss example was a good one since it gives the player a shortcut through the dungeon. I'd just like to see more examples of that for puzzles, dungeons, and optional quests. I don't have much to add though, since I'm really just waiting to see what you write about the other areas you're about to cover, since they are the most interesting to me. So far what you have is really great.
I think the big question though is how to get the player motivated to do these things. Your mini boss example was a good one since it gives the player a shortcut through the dungeon. I'd just like to see more examples of that for puzzles, dungeons, and optional quests. I don't have much to add though, since I'm really just waiting to see what you write about the other areas you're about to cover, since they are the most interesting to me. So far what you have is really great.
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