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LightningLord2
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The site owner spouts white supremacist garbage and the mods react to my concerns by laughing at me. I'm not going to put up with a toxic community like this anymore.
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RMN BossRush ---CLOSED---
Can I be playable, too? I don't think a pink-haired cutie makes for good boss material.
(Also, nothing wrong with letting the player pick and choose between different party compositions)
(Also, nothing wrong with letting the player pick and choose between different party compositions)
Race and Gender in Games
author=unityauthor=SnowOwlYet you made it your quest to look thru her gamepages too and called her a liar? Calm down, man. She was just making a point that people can still be rude about these sorts of things.author=unityemmych's message specifically stated that I should look at the gamepage of Luxaren Allure.
People send comments via PMs too, you know. Some of the ones I referenced in my post came from PMs and not just in public comments.
The intention was, presumably, to make it sound like there are hordes of people shaming you for having lesbians in your game. That is not the truth. It's plain bullshit, because a staggering majority is positive.
I admit that the staggering majority of comments I get for LA are positive. That's my point, really, that I haven't been shut down by some angry SJW force for having a game filled with gay characters.
That's because the threat of SJWs shouting down games for the sake of political correctness is completely imaginary - it's just made up to rally people for strengthening your own racist beliefs.
Race and Gender in Games
Emmych: What you're reffering to is tone policing - it's a way of dodging an argument by accusing the opposing party of being rude or aggressive. It's a lazy way of claiming you're in the right while sounding like a broken record.
What are you thinking about right now?
Race and Gender in Games
author=NeverSilent
If I may be so rude to make one observation:
LightningLord2 and kentona, I don't understand why you two are arguing. To me, it seems like you are both sharing basically the same viewpoint, but just using different words to explain it, thereby missing each other's points. Basically, what you're saying is that when writing something, you shouldn't go about it in a dumb or ignorant fashion, but rather do your research first and then do what you can to the best of your abilities. That seems like a good idea to me, and probably also a good approach when conversing or discussing with another person: Respect their individuality, and expect them to do the same.
What I'm having a problem with is kentona interpreting any form of criticism as a brutal insult to the person you're critisizing, rather than seeing the benefits of noting the negative parts of a writer's/programmer's/artist's/etc. work. This also ties into the (very legitimate) point Liberty makes - yes, it will take some time before the bad works fade out for better ones, but it takes realizing just why those old works were bad before you can make great ones.
@Kalledemos: You're right about writing in general to be subpar 95% of the time, but it doesn't make representation less relevant, because you can have good representation* in bad stories and bad representation* in good stories (though you can argue that representation affects the story's quality).
*with that I mean how minorities are portrayed rather than how many you cover.
Race and Gender in Games
author=kentona
but we are seeing the effects of self-censorship playing out right now - I wont be including any overtly gay, transgendered or otherkin characters in my games lest I inadvertantly incur the wrath of the masses. The risks are too great and the rewards too nebulous. Now imagine that but at the scale of AAA movies and games where the costs and visibility are so much more. Playing it "safe" now means "avoiding potential vitriol" or "running afoul 'incorrect' depictions".
Attempts at including minorities in media will be left to the minorities to accomplish, because as my background is a middle class cis white male I don't have the intersectional credibility to attempt such things in my stories. And I guess that kind of segregation and judging people on their backgrounds instead of the media's content is the end goal? only a black director can legitimately direct Black Panther?
So I stand my statement that we should back off on calling out people on being insensitive and start promoting awareness. It's more effective.
Okay, you're this close to being put on ignore, but I think I can explain some of the things:
1. If you are afraid of backlash for your portrayal of gay/trans/otherkin characters, why don't you ask the respective people to review your writing and point out any problematic aspects.
2. Calling out people on being insensitive is promoting awareness - even I was making highly racist jokes on the past - being called out on it by a PoC helped me realize what I was doing. Your statement about it makes no sense.
3. You won't run into offensiveness very much problem if you don't try to topicalize the minority your protagonist belongs to. You can just do something like a trans woman of color leaping out of a helicopter piloted by a football cyborg fighting rainbow laser dragons with electric chainsaw katana chucks.
Race and Gender in Games
It's ironic that the people speaking of others being too oversensitive and getting offended at everything tend to be the ones offended the most.
Kentona, you're making the mistake that every writer exists in a vacuum. A writer has to consider any statements their plot and events make - for instance, having a man abuse a woman within the plot is something I won't forbid, but that scene can imply superiority of men over women, which can be interpreted as the author being sexist depending on how the scene plays out.
Also, self-censorship is just a made-up term to encourage bigotry, since you're not censoring yourself for abiding to basic human decency. And, strangely, people who claim to be anti-censorship keep demanding the removal of any minority representation or the altering of romancable NPCs that are not entirely catered to straight male people.
Addendum: Also, we call out racism because they are unaware of the racism within a certain action. It's not public shaming, it's asking people to pay attention to what they say/mean. For instance, I'm not gonna drop the N word casually and then defend myself saying I didn't mean to insult black people. If I didn't want to insult them, I wouldn't have said it to begin with (or realize I made a mistake and apologize).
Kentona, you're making the mistake that every writer exists in a vacuum. A writer has to consider any statements their plot and events make - for instance, having a man abuse a woman within the plot is something I won't forbid, but that scene can imply superiority of men over women, which can be interpreted as the author being sexist depending on how the scene plays out.
Also, self-censorship is just a made-up term to encourage bigotry, since you're not censoring yourself for abiding to basic human decency. And, strangely, people who claim to be anti-censorship keep demanding the removal of any minority representation or the altering of romancable NPCs that are not entirely catered to straight male people.
Addendum: Also, we call out racism because they are unaware of the racism within a certain action. It's not public shaming, it's asking people to pay attention to what they say/mean. For instance, I'm not gonna drop the N word casually and then defend myself saying I didn't mean to insult black people. If I didn't want to insult them, I wouldn't have said it to begin with (or realize I made a mistake and apologize).
Race and Gender in Games
author=kentonaauthor=SnowOwlSociety: Make the game you want
Another reflection that I have noted, maybe not here but on the internet in general.
Unpopular opinion incoming: If we assume it's true that certain races or LGBT people are underrepresented, I think part of the blame actually lies with the worst kind of SJWs. Lets say you make a game with a trans person, but an angry SJW doesn't like the way the person is being portrayed and decides that you are a bigot. You didn't mean any harm, and you thought you were being respectful.
The SJW gets his/her angry friends to fling shit at your game. Your reputation is ruined, without you having done more than put a trans person in your game. It's not the likeliest story there is, but it's a very real possibility, and I can guarantee you that alot of people think that this is a possibility unconsciously or consciously.
There is most likely at least one person that will be very vocal about you not portraying a group of people like they prefer on the internet. But since it's OK to fling shit at white males, and to some degree white females, that's alot easier to put into your game. Is it racism/sexism?
Society: No. Not like that.
Literally never happened. And never will because the hatemob will drive out any trans/gay/black/etc. person before they can say anything bad about the game. What does happen a lot is people flinging shit at game developers for cutting fap material and demand the removal of any kind of tolerance from games.
Also, the "racism against white people" crowd is like a guy taking seven slices of cake and getting angry at the chef for giving the eighth piece to someone else who's hungry. They ask "What about white people?" and "What about men?" when it's all about them already.
Lastly, most of the time when people call you out for being racist, misgendering someone and so on, it's that person trying to give helpful advice and kindly asking you to improve upon yourself. Saying they are "shit flinging" is wrong on a graham number of levels.
Race and Gender in Games
author=SnowOwl
Just because a character isn't exactly like you in every way that doesn't mean you can't identify with a character. It's not impossible to identify with a black character even if you're white.
I'm interested in why this forum is so focused on gender and matters concerning race, every thread concerning those topics gets 10+ pages.
It's true that characters don't need to look like me, but games having characters biased towards being white, male, straight etc. means that there is a real danger of not only underrepresentation, but outright erasure of certain minorities. In certain settings (dystopian, post-apocalyptic, colonization etc.), this can even insinuate that the unrepresented people were left behind or exterminated. Most complaints about ethnic minorities and LGBTQIA+ people being 'forced in' to 'pander to SJWs' are just people upset about that less than 99,99% of the characters are white men.
As for why this topic has so many posts, this is mainly due to the lack of topics regarding representation, treating minorities with respect or racial tension. In contrast, topics related to gameplay features, combat balance, number tweaking, map design, scripting and so on are plentiful, so it's rare for a discussion to focus on that for a long time.
Race and Gender in Games
author=SgtMettool
None of my characters in either of my main games (Yuusha, Soma Spirits) have canon sexualities. Nor are there any romance subplots.
I let the players decide.
Although this should be alright on paper, what actually happens is that LGBTQIA+ people won't feel 'true' representation because characters in general are considered straight, white and male unless proven otherwise.
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