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Rethinking Antagonists
You only enjoy finishing a game but don't enjoy playing it? I think finishing a game is not needed to enjoy it.
I was like that when I was younger. Always thought I needed to finish every game because I paid a lot of money for it. But eventually I got into a crisis not really enjoying games anymore. Then a person told me to "Play a game only as long as you enjoy it" so I did that and the result was that I enjoy the hobby a lot more again, I just don't finish games anymore.
I was like that when I was younger. Always thought I needed to finish every game because I paid a lot of money for it. But eventually I got into a crisis not really enjoying games anymore. Then a person told me to "Play a game only as long as you enjoy it" so I did that and the result was that I enjoy the hobby a lot more again, I just don't finish games anymore.
Letting players catch up after changing builds
BoF III also has the problem that is has long-term challenges. I already said in the other thread that I don't remember it properly anymore, probably I didn't want to buy any healing items because I needed the money to buy new equips.
Counter-example: SaGaFrontier. My favorite game. Short term challenges only. Many people consider it unfairly hard. I finished it 20 times (except Riki's scenario, Ring Lord ruins it - that's again a long-term challenge because it requires building up the right skills).
SaGaFrontier 2 on the other hand was waaay too hard, though I think I just did something wrong (when I watch videos the characters have 2 times the HP than mine and deal like 10 times the damage! even though I actually grinded for hours until all my weapons except the best ones had broken). Again a long-term challenge, especially due to weapon breaking (but even some of the short-term challenges are ridiculously hard, like the last SRPG battle which even if you did the perfect movement you only had a 30% chance to win due to randomness).
I finished all Star Ocean games and Valkyrie Profile and found all fairly easy.
FFVI was easy. FFVII was easy except the final dungeon. Eternal Sonata was fairly easy. Lots of games I loved and finished.
Shadow of the Colossus and Trine 2 on the other hand were frustratingly hard at some points.
But anyway, the point was that it doesn't really depend on the difficulty itself but more on if it's a long-term or a short-term challenge.
Long-term challenges are frustrating and consequently restatting needs to be possible.
Counter-example: SaGaFrontier. My favorite game. Short term challenges only. Many people consider it unfairly hard. I finished it 20 times (except Riki's scenario, Ring Lord ruins it - that's again a long-term challenge because it requires building up the right skills).
SaGaFrontier 2 on the other hand was waaay too hard, though I think I just did something wrong (when I watch videos the characters have 2 times the HP than mine and deal like 10 times the damage! even though I actually grinded for hours until all my weapons except the best ones had broken). Again a long-term challenge, especially due to weapon breaking (but even some of the short-term challenges are ridiculously hard, like the last SRPG battle which even if you did the perfect movement you only had a 30% chance to win due to randomness).
I finished all Star Ocean games and Valkyrie Profile and found all fairly easy.
FFVI was easy. FFVII was easy except the final dungeon. Eternal Sonata was fairly easy. Lots of games I loved and finished.
Shadow of the Colossus and Trine 2 on the other hand were frustratingly hard at some points.
But anyway, the point was that it doesn't really depend on the difficulty itself but more on if it's a long-term or a short-term challenge.
Long-term challenges are frustrating and consequently restatting needs to be possible.
Rethinking Antagonists
"No time to not finish the games I buy"? :p
If you have a job, you usually have enough money and just no time. So you care less about wasting money and more about getting the maximum enjoyment out of the little time you have. Consequently "Only play the game as long as it's fun" seems the optimal choice.
The issue is that I only like a very small amount of games and only for a limited amount of time.
On-topic: Not actually finishing most of the games you play actually supports "games need no villains".
If you have a job, you usually have enough money and just no time. So you care less about wasting money and more about getting the maximum enjoyment out of the little time you have. Consequently "Only play the game as long as it's fun" seems the optimal choice.
The issue is that I only like a very small amount of games and only for a limited amount of time.
On-topic: Not actually finishing most of the games you play actually supports "games need no villains".
Letting players catch up after changing builds
No that was my experience with it. But we really don't need to discuss that further. You are obviously a genius that is able to play through all games he/she plays.
Rethinking Antagonists
@Dragnfly
It's really funny how exactly opposite we are. FF13 is one of the only games I actually finished in the past years because I really liked it (not because of the story, though, I just liked the music and the battle system).
Doesn't that depend on the reason why you don't finish them?
I finish around 10% of the games I buy. Of the rest a third I don't finish because they have some annoying mechanism I can't stand but which I couldn't anticipate beforehand, the second third I don't finish because they get boring after 10-20 hours in (most RPGs are simply too stretched out for their own good) and the remaining ones I liked a lot and simply couldn't finish because they were too hard.
I don't see why I should reconsider buying them, because I can't predict before playing if they are too annoying or hard and still enjoy the second type for 10-20 hours which makes them worth their money.
It's really funny how exactly opposite we are. FF13 is one of the only games I actually finished in the past years because I really liked it (not because of the story, though, I just liked the music and the battle system).
If I found I wasn't finishing games I'd reconsider the games I was playing or gaming in general.
Doesn't that depend on the reason why you don't finish them?
I finish around 10% of the games I buy. Of the rest a third I don't finish because they have some annoying mechanism I can't stand but which I couldn't anticipate beforehand, the second third I don't finish because they get boring after 10-20 hours in (most RPGs are simply too stretched out for their own good) and the remaining ones I liked a lot and simply couldn't finish because they were too hard.
I don't see why I should reconsider buying them, because I can't predict before playing if they are too annoying or hard and still enjoy the second type for 10-20 hours which makes them worth their money.
Letting players catch up after changing builds
author=Feldschlacht IVThere are different ways of punishment. Dying in a battle because you made a wrong choice and having to retry it is perfectly fine. Being weaker than you should be EVERY battle for the rest of the game because you didn't study guides on how to build your character before playing = bad.
I'm of the opinion that games (of any kind, video games, sports, etc) without any rules or restrictions aren't very fun, and dumb players should be penalized by making dumb ass choices.
I'm all for an accommodating way to buffer frustration and make difficulty curves smooth, but I don't enjoy a game that never punishes me or forces or even encourages me to do better.
A challenge is only good if the player can solve it perfectly only by ingame information and effort.
I want a challenge too, but I want the challenges to be short-term and not something like putting your stats right or else having to restart or having a bad time for the rest of the game.
A game without any challenge makes me quit of boredom. I game that frustrates me with annoying long-term challenges like "bad build" or "only being able to save every 2 hours" or "you can't beat the dungeon because you ran out of healing items and there's no instant return to town spell" makes me ragequit.
Both is bad, though the former is something that you forget pretty fast whereas the latter becomes a candidate for most hated game ever.
Letting players catch up after changing builds
How can someone consider Trine 2 as easy? Every second screen I was stuck for over an hour before I managed to figure out how to continue. Sometimes I even watched a video of the solution and still couldn't pull it off. X_X I ragequit it eventually. I would have liked it if it wasn't so difficult, because I really liked the concept itself.
There aren't many that are not super hard and punish you for taking a wrong build and THAT is the problem.
Yes, most of those games have a difficulty setting and you can just put it on easy or trivial and finish it even without caring about your build, but I find that much less enjoyable than playing with an optimal build on a harder difficulty.
So yeah, all those games on trivial/very easy/easy don't have difficult parts. FFX-2 is also easy and has a class system, but it's nothing I'm thinking of.
Games where I used cheats to be able to respec and got more enjoyment from them that way:
- Might&Magic series
- Baldur's Gate / Icewind Dale / Pillars of Eternity
- Lords of Xulima
- Avernum series (this one has an integrated character editor, so it's a good example on how to do it right) and the other spiderweb games
- Divinity series
- Blackguards series (encrypted save files and even using cheat engine isn't easy, they really hate the player)
- Drakensang series
- Banner Saga series
- Legend of Grimrock series (has integrated debug mode)
- Shadowrun series (also integrated debug mode)
- The Witcher series (had to do some more changes to it, unlimited weight capacity, enough skill points to get all skills)
Probably more but don't remember them at the moment.
I can't really think of a game I've ever played that had some sort of class system but didn't have what you'd consider a difficult part at some point. Do you have any examples?
There aren't many that are not super hard and punish you for taking a wrong build and THAT is the problem.
Yes, most of those games have a difficulty setting and you can just put it on easy or trivial and finish it even without caring about your build, but I find that much less enjoyable than playing with an optimal build on a harder difficulty.
So yeah, all those games on trivial/very easy/easy don't have difficult parts. FFX-2 is also easy and has a class system, but it's nothing I'm thinking of.
Games where I used cheats to be able to respec and got more enjoyment from them that way:
- Might&Magic series
- Baldur's Gate / Icewind Dale / Pillars of Eternity
- Lords of Xulima
- Avernum series (this one has an integrated character editor, so it's a good example on how to do it right) and the other spiderweb games
- Divinity series
- Blackguards series (encrypted save files and even using cheat engine isn't easy, they really hate the player)
- Drakensang series
- Banner Saga series
- Legend of Grimrock series (has integrated debug mode)
- Shadowrun series (also integrated debug mode)
- The Witcher series (had to do some more changes to it, unlimited weight capacity, enough skill points to get all skills)
Probably more but don't remember them at the moment.
Rethinking Antagonists
Btw, next to Kefka and Sephiroth, my other favorite villain is Lezard Valeth who is quite a bit different. He is actually driven by love, but what makes him a great villain is how far he is willing to go for it.
Rethinking Antagonists
Everyone's taste limits his input in a discussion.
Seems like you are fixed on that thought that Kefka and Sephiroth are not actually the best villains ever, so you want to talk with people who are more into "political" villains. What's wrong with coming in and pointing out that Kefka and Sephiroth really are the best villains? What is a discussion without different viewpoints.
Also even in JRPGs there many different villains. The E.G.G. in SaGaFrontier 2 and the final boss in Unlimited Saga are for example ones which I consider a natural disaster. SaGaFrontier 1 has 7 villains that are all not very deep so I wouldn't mention those even though SGF is my favorite game of all time. There are also political villains in JRPGs, Suikoden for example. But I just didn't like them. They all seem so meaningless when they don't go psycho and kill everyone.
Seems like you are fixed on that thought that Kefka and Sephiroth are not actually the best villains ever, so you want to talk with people who are more into "political" villains. What's wrong with coming in and pointing out that Kefka and Sephiroth really are the best villains? What is a discussion without different viewpoints.
Also even in JRPGs there many different villains. The E.G.G. in SaGaFrontier 2 and the final boss in Unlimited Saga are for example ones which I consider a natural disaster. SaGaFrontier 1 has 7 villains that are all not very deep so I wouldn't mention those even though SGF is my favorite game of all time. There are also political villains in JRPGs, Suikoden for example. But I just didn't like them. They all seem so meaningless when they don't go psycho and kill everyone.
Rethinking Antagonists
Nobody finishes all games or even just a large amount of games he gets, so not knowing all final villains in existence would be an issue for literally everyone.
I know what villains and stories I like.
I would play games of all genres if they were good. it's not like I don't give other genres a chance at all just because they are another genre. Not my fault that JRPGs have the best villains. :p
I know what villains and stories I like.
I would play games of all genres if they were good. it's not like I don't give other genres a chance at all just because they are another genre. Not my fault that JRPGs have the best villains. :p
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