DESERTOPA'S PROFILE
Desertopa
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Guardian Frontier
An RPG with classic-style gameplay and a non-classic premise, inspired by the history of exploration and colonialism of the 19th century.
An RPG with classic-style gameplay and a non-classic premise, inspired by the history of exploration and colonialism of the 19th century.
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How important are: PLOT TWISTS?
author=Yellow Magic
I don't want to be a stickler, but that is pretty much exactly what I just wrote...
Sorry, I had the tab open a long time before I came back and wrote anything. When I wrote the comment up, I didn't have yours in front of me.
Another point I think it's important to keep in mind; make sure that you don't end up bending over backwards or employing contrived coincidences to preserve secrets you've decided to hide. There should be good reasons for the information not to make it to the characters/player before the reveal, beyond the meta level consideration of "it would mess up the plot."
How important are: PLOT TWISTS?
One thing that I would definitely suggest avoiding at all costs; it is pretty much never a good idea to write a story around an idea, decide it's too straightforward, and then add a plot twist. The plot twists should be consequences of the main ideas of the story, not add-ons.
Should the last boss be super challenging?
author=Housekeeping
@Unity: No amount of warnings would stop any player from pulling a shiny sword out of the ground. It's the same problem as the "Do not consume raw cookie dough" message on the Tollhouse container in my fridge; some warnings just get ignored.
It doesn't help that a huge number of games require the player character to do similarly stupid things to progress in the plot. A lot of players already have whatever "do not do things that are stupid and self-destructive in terms of the game's plot" instincts they once had trained out of them.
author=unity
My question is, does this idea work? Should I worry that it's weird, from a story perspective? (As in, would it make the characters look dumb if they take the sword?) And can I do it without making a separate ending for those players who took the challenging route, or should I throw in something extra for them?
Well, the situation with the sword isn't foreshadowed and discussed before the characters encounter it, and the player character simply pulls the sword out upon encountering it for no reason other than the player's say-so, then yeah, I do think it would make the characters look kind of dumb. If the warning explicitly says not to pull out the sword, because it will make the final boss stronger, then the idea that the characters might decide that the sword would be more useful than the added danger they're creating by powering up the boss seems kind of transparently ill-considered.
I think that the general idea of having the option to make the final boss more powerful has merit, but I think it's also best if it doesn't involve the protagonists doing something that they have the information to know is probably a bad idea. Star Ocean 2 avoids this problem, but instead runs into the problem of not making it clear to the player what actions are necessary to power up the boss. Without knowing the specifics of the situation in your game, I can't really give detailed advice, but I'd suggest that you try to navigate between these problems by leveraging the difference between what the player knows and what the characters do. Give the player access to some information (through flashbacks, scenes from the point of view of other characters, or what have you,) that the protagonists don't have, so you can guide them through actions that the player will know would serve to empower the final boss, but the protagonists don't.
Should the last boss be super challenging?
author=RyaReisender
@nurvuss
Nope, pickpocket isn't needed, you just need to see a single private action for the boss to get strong. And a simple talking to a random NPC in the arena to get to the bonus dungeon.
Nurvuss is half right. You don't need to pickpocket Filia, but you do need to encounter her in her private action before Clik is destroyed. Most players probably see this scene, since it has no preconditions and is available in an easily visible spot, but since Clik is only accessible for a short period of time before being destroyed, if you neglect to explore the private actions at that time, you won't be able to get the private action later in the game (after returning from the game's final save point) which would power up the final boss.
Calling the conditions for getting the bonus dungeon "a simple talking to a random NPC" is misleading in the extreme though. If you go through the whole "talk to everybody" process at any point before touching the final save point in the game, talking to this random NPC will do nothing. There's nothing in the area to call attention to him, he's just a face in a large crowd. For the entire rest of the game, talking to NPCs without unique sprites, who appear in the same place in both regular exploration and private actions, does not lead to rewards other than dialogue. Even after major events, unless their sprites have actually changed locations, NPCs who are not major characters almost never get new dialogue, so the player has a long time to be trained out of the presumption that there's any value in going around and talking to the same NPCs multiple times after they've advanced further in gameplay. Further, there's no precedent in the game up to that point for touching a save point functioning as a trigger for any kind of events, so a player who hasn't been explicitly informed has no reason to suppose that touching the final save point will have changed anything. On top of all this, the very process of getting out of the final dungeon from the last save point and getting back to the rest of Nede takes somewhere in the neighborhood of half an hour of gameplay- and it'll take them just as long to get back. The process of getting to the bonus dungeon is easy, if you know what the requirements are, but the game has put you in a position such that you would have no way of guessing the process on your own, and all your ordinary gameplay motivations work against discovering it by accident.
Should the last boss be super challenging?
author=bulmabriefs144
Legend of Dragoon. I had top defensive items, and the White Dragon with MP Regen Ring. The battle took six hours (physical attacks didn't hit for much, so attacking went in cycles while MP regen'd)! The final battle should have:
- Epic battle length
- At least one attack that party kill (hence the party needs a workaround like rare equips, or levels above the threshold where it one hits)
- possible puzzle elements
- Multiple form/attacks changes
Final Fantasy's Yunalesca was Final Boss material. Yu Yevon... kinda wasn't.
Braska's Final Aeon is a pretty solid final boss though, if you haven't done the optional content (I wasn't using a guide, and simply failed to find the vast majority of it.)
Six hours sounds too long for a final boss fight, to me. You don't want it to be over in a flash, but you don't want a fight that your players might have to put off for a long time until they finally have a chance to finish it in one go, or force them to play through it in multiple sittings. That just kills the tension.
The Strategy RPG/Visual Novel Aselia the Eternal had this problem. You could save at any time during battles, but the last few battles were so long, it's pretty impractical to finish them in one sitting, and you lose a lot of tension putting a battle on hold midway through.
Large Numbers: Gold edition! (and item pricing)
Kind of a tangent to the subject, but the idea that "gold" is the default currency has bugged me for a long time. I favor made-up currencies, like Gil or Zenny, which might be more or less arbitrarily valuable, but even making the standard currency "silver" in the Lunar games was a big improvement over gold. Gold is valuable enough that it's hard to make it the standard of exchange for trivial purchases as well as major ones. You can shell out gold for a sword or suit of armor, but buying bread or fruit with gold just makes me feel silly.
Should the last boss be super challenging?
author=RyaReisender
It's not that hard to find the secrets in Star Ocean 2. If you leave the final dungeon after the final save point and just travel around enter each town normally and through private actions and then talk to all NPCs you will find it for sure without any guide.
That's pretty damn obtuse; the final save point comes at the end of what is by far the longest and most complicated dungeon up to that point. Getting back down at all is a pain, and not something players would be likely to do for no reason. If you simply want to go back to stock up on supplies (unlikely, Star Ocean 2 gives you the capacity to buy vital supplies in dungeons via the Familiar skill, which most players will have by endgame, and if you don't have it you're almost certainly not ready for the bonus content anyway,) then there's no reason to visit the locations with the necessary triggers. If you haven't already wrapped up all the loose ends you plan to in terms of private actions and talking to NPCs, there's really no sensible reason to go all the way to the last save place in the final dungeon and turn back again.
The trigger to power up the final boss is easy enough to find that if, for whatever reason, you decided to come back down from the very end of the final dungeon and wander around and enter private actions at random, it wouldn't be that unlikely to find it (although this is an unlikely precondition in the first place.) The trigger to access the bonus dungeon though, is an NPC who's a total face-in-the-crowd (and it's literally in one of the most NPC crowded areas in the game,) whose dialogue has remained constant from the point he first became accessible until you hit the trigger of the game's final save point, which is completely arbitrary and has no logical connection with anything he says or does.
Should the last boss be super challenging?
I don't mind having bonus bosses that are harder than the final boss, occasionally, as long as it's very clear in the narrative why the optional boss doesn't constitute the major threat that the final boss does, or something that might address that threat on its own. I tend to like it when games have a lot of optional content, and sometimes it's just not practical to calibrate the final boss so that it's challenging after you've completed all the optional content, but still possible if you haven't done any of it. If you have to complete at least some of the "optional" content to win, then it's not really optional.
On the other hand, I find that challenging final bosses tend to be significantly more satisfying, so if you can find a way to have your cake and eat it too, by all means use it. I also enjoyed the Star Ocean 2 implementation above, but I'd add the caveat that it basically demands a guide; there's practically no way you're going to find the bonus dungeon by yourself, and even if you did, the trigger for powering up the final boss is separate from finding the final dungeon (which actually makes it more narratively consistent, but the trigger to power up the final boss is actually somewhat easier, although still difficult, to stumble on by accident, and if you did that without the bonus dungeon you'd pretty much be screwed.)
On the other hand, I find that challenging final bosses tend to be significantly more satisfying, so if you can find a way to have your cake and eat it too, by all means use it. I also enjoyed the Star Ocean 2 implementation above, but I'd add the caveat that it basically demands a guide; there's practically no way you're going to find the bonus dungeon by yourself, and even if you did, the trigger for powering up the final boss is separate from finding the final dungeon (which actually makes it more narratively consistent, but the trigger to power up the final boss is actually somewhat easier, although still difficult, to stumble on by accident, and if you did that without the bonus dungeon you'd pretty much be screwed.)
Stronger Version of Skills; is it necessary?
author=Crystalgate
I would advice against giving skills a low chance to inflict something. In my experience, a low chance to inflict something causes the skill to be treated as if it had zero chance. If the lightning skill has a 30% chance to paralyze, I must assume it fails to paralyze the enemy and plan accordingly.
This is often, but not always the case. I'm currently playing a game (will have a review when I'm done) where, at the point I'm at now, I have a skill with a chance of paralyzing an enemy, and a weapon which also has a chance of doing so. Even if neither one constitutes a majority chance, the two of them together do, and while fighting a powerful enemy, it's possible for me to prevent it from attacking most turns by using the skill and the weapon in concert between two characters.
These kinds of setups, where a chance of inflicting a status effect makes a significant impact on your strategy, are easy to arrange in principle, where they have a marked effect on your expected result averaged over several turns, but in practice, most games avoid situations where this would be useful; more often than not the battles where you have to make meaningful choices about your expectations several turns ahead are ones where status effects don't work anyway.
Giving Player a Game's Backstory
author=LockeZ
That's really not totally fair, I know there are games where some of that stuff really does matter, and occasionally when I get really into a game I will actually care about some of the lore myself. But it should still be introduced naturally through dialogue and gameplay as it becomes relevant, just like in a movie, if at all possible. And if there's nowhere in any of the scenes where it's relevant enough to get mentioned, then... it has nothing to do with your game and thus should be excluded, if you ask me. There's a reason Lord of the Rings is one of the most popular fantasy stories of all time, yet no one would even agree to publish the Silmarillion until after Tolkien was dead, and even then his son had to self-publish it.
Hell, I couldn't even get into Lord of the Rings, at an age where I practically never put down a book unfinished, because of Tolkien's issues with shoehorning lore in where it didn't fit the context and pacing of the story. He was great at coming up with the lore, and created a far more developed and cohesive world than most of his imitators, but he wasn't that great at knowing how to introduce it.
In general, I think it's good to know more about the background of your story than you'll ever actually write. When you write with that background in mind, it'll come across as hints which suggest a deeper, more developed world, and the measured doses will help keep the player curious for the amount that they get.













