Polymorphous Perversity (18+ NWS)

Anyway, I don't have the time or energy to respond to several people at once, so I'm going to bow out of this topic. I also don't have the energy to discuss this well with people who have admitted that they didn't read the entire topic.

If anyone has something new and is willing to have some kind of a discussion, I would love to talk to you in PMs about it. Until then, have fun!

Polymorphous Perversity (18+ NWS)

You need to calm down and stop railing against some strawman. I'm extremely active in the feminist community and nothing you are saying is new to me. Nowhere did I say that tranny was not a dehumanizing term. Not even once. In fact, I specifically said that it was. I said that it did not have nearly the same history and is thus not as bad. And yes, that is important. The history associated with a word is a huge part of what gives it power.

So, transgendered people will have to wait several more decades for their derogatory insults to be as high in importance as others? When it should be pretty blatantly obvious that to a transgendered person, it is JUST as insulting as any other word?

I should also note that the feminist movement and transsexuals have not had the highest amount of cooperation with each other. For example, please look up the Michigan "Womyn's" Festival. Again, though, this is something else.

I didn't say anything about the murder statistics of transgendered people? At all? Ever? Because that is sort of unrelated to this discussion.

Oh please. You claimed that "tranny" cannot have nearly the same amount of violent connotations as "nigger", so don't try and backpedal from this.

Okay. Which do you think is worse. Nigger or Cracker. But this entire argument is a red herring because:

you do know that scene has a lot of problems in itself too, which is a topic for another discussion. i'm just going to say that it is far more creepy than "deep" or "funny" or whatever you would like to think about it.

I thought my post pretty obviously implied that it was horrible.

Which is my entire point. This whole game is an extremely crude and juvenile ...thing. It does not subvert any cultural norms or prod at any dark areas of my brain, or look fun to play, or whatever it was supposed to do. It's awful in its paintings of everything and is made by a guy who has made a A. Brothel Game and B. Torture Game (This is why I brought them up) and now this game with its weird rape scene and whatever else so my point is that you have exactly 0 chance of getting anywhere with this argument that Calunio should be more sensitive to transgendered people when he has shown that he has zero interest in approaching the subject of sex or women with any kind of sensitivity whatsoever.

And so because it's..."supposed" to be crude, juvenile, or what have you, and it is executed so wrong, we should still excuse everything inside it? I don't even know what to think of this game now; some people say that it's a psychological analysis, while other people say that it's a juvenile comedy.

I've already gone through this, so I'm not going to repeat myself.

Polymorphous Perversity (18+ NWS)

I didn't say they should be grateful; I said they should get over it. But yes, if you're offended by something, you should sit down and shut up. That's what you're telling homophobes to do, right? They're offended by transgendered people, and you're telling them to sit down and shut up. It goes both ways. They're offended by you and you're offended by them. You think your rights are more important because you think you're the one who's correct, but they think the same thing. From my perspective as a third party, there's no difference. So anything you tell them to do, you have to be willing to do also. That includes tolerance. If you want them to be tolerant of your views, you have to be tolerant of their views.

"I'm sorry that you're offended, but I have a right to make as much hateful and derogatory speech as I want against you and you're being hateful to me by saying that I'm wrong." I'll be sure to let Martin Luther King and other activists from the Civil Rights, Feminist, LGBT, et al movements know that what they've been doing is totally intolerant by your standards (which must apply to everyone i guess). Trying to stick up for a group is bad, you see!

Really, you are being so hypocritical by saying that I'm being intolerant of a group that is being intolerant itself. Why don't we make more movies like Birth of a Nation, then? That would probably go very well!

I haven't played the game or read the comments here, but I am now quite curious as to what is so offensive that has caused you to have such a bee in your bonnet!

you really should read them, because i would like to think that i already answered this in my posts.

Who is represented well in media? Umm... No one.
And if you are gathering real opinions from TV and video games, then you should probably move to a big city or not share/act on those opinions.
Trannies don't need you to defend them, everyone knows they carry bricks in their purses.

We don't need to play count the trannies, but I know several trans people from both sides, transitioning into something new, and "going back" into what they were. Hell, I'd even say I know a lot of trans people (and they say tranny most of all), but that doesn't change anything.
It shouldn't make me more or less qualified to make an observation.

Actually, it does, because you don't suffer from the same bigotry as transgenders do. It was only very recently that crimes targeting transgendered people have been written as a "hate crime" into US law; what does that say about the state of TG rights now? Let's not forget that, in some countries and states, you are barred from changing your legal gender, and living as the opposite sex can get you into prison!

I don't know about transgender people that you know, but those I know don't really appreciate random strangers throwing it around carelessly like that. And of course transgenders say it to each other - it's the TG community's version of reclaiming it.

As usual, someone too emotionally involved with a subject ruins the fun for everybody else... It's just a work of fiction, for Christ sake!

lol okay, i'll leave you guys alone with your party. please don't be surprised though if more things like this offend more people and draw them away from you.

I understand and commend the whole 'dispelling misinformation' thing, though, and I'm sure any author that respects its work would value criticism of that nature in order to improve its craft. But "calling out" on an author because you fancy feel offended over something it's plain pretentious. And trying to pin on that person any kind of responsibility for the murders of other people is beyond surreal... This discussion started out all right, but it has devolved in such a guiltrip that I don't even know which part is more pathetic.

What the hell...? I'm not directly pinning calunio on causing murders at all. I thought I made it pretty clear that this is a widespread phenomenon that should be worked on, and more people perpetuating it would only make things worse...you saying that I should be ashamed of accusing him of leading to a transgendered person's death is such an exaggeration of what I'm saying, that I would almost think you were intentionally being dishonest.

Well, I'd argue that some kind of media are more legitimate ways to formulate opinions from than others, but yeah, pretty much this. People should learn to think this way and put the blame for all the evils of the world where it really belongs. (and work on adequate cures)

I dunno, it seems like a whole lot of everyone here are either completely misreading what I am trying to say (and I'm trying hard to believe this), or they are intentionally not reading and they are arguing points that I have already addressed. It should be pretty f'ing obvious by now that I am not anti-politically-incorrect comedy, and I'm not trying to encroach on other people's "rights" (lol the right to hate others, thank you for this lockez).

]I think the game is pretty messed up in a lot of ways, but I'll fight to my last breath for his right to make it. Disallowing a game because it's pornographic or because it's low quality is one thing; censoring it because you don't want the creator's message to be spread is absolutely beyond horrible. You can definitely openly discuss the problems with the game, and you can hate on the game, but the idea that it should be banned or systematically driven away by the staff for its message is utterly deplorable. If you're a transsexual then I'm sure you know exactly how it feels to have that sort of thing happen to you, so I'm astonished that it sounds like you want to do this to someone else.

I don't know what's worse, that you preach tolerance of intolerance from others, or that you try to relate me possibly being transsexual receiving hate from others to me asking that people stop with things that are so old, overused, and utterly wrong. You go ahead, though, and have fun!

Polymorphous Perversity (18+ NWS)

Polymorphous Perversity is not on RMN and isn't allowed to be uploaded on RMN.

That's fair enough! I'll watch out in the future, as I mistakenly associated what you said to be representative of the entire site, so I'm sorry for it.

Still, though, I'm kind of surprised that you would hold this viewpoint to indie RPG maker games, as if there is nothing better that you would expect from them like any other medium. This attack on me (by other community members, not you) even bringing out the game's offensiveness, or even arguing the importance of "tranny", just makes me think about that woman who is making the female gamer documentary and what she received in response to it.

If I can't expect something that would break today's mold, then why should I have any hope for something new?

Polymorphous Perversity (18+ NWS)

I think that if you are looking for an impartial and dispassionate representation of transgendered sexuality in an indie RPG maker game, you are looking in the wrong place.

I'm pretty surprised to hear this from you, kenton. Should I guess that the next time someone makes a racist, sexist, homophobic, or such game and uploads it onto RMN, then it would be perfectly fine by you and nothing should be expected out of it? No discussion should be made, and everyone should stand idly by and watch things unfold, because after all it is only an "indie RPG maker" scene.

I appreciate that this is a community of new people and amateurs, but I would've liked to think that we would hold ourselves to a much higher social standard. Maybe I've been wrong this whole time?

Polymorphous Perversity (18+ NWS)

You can't do comedy without misrepresenting things. That's sort of all comedy is. A "joke" is, by definition, untrue. You're not trying to be honest and accurate. You're just, uh... joking.

Well, and there's also observational humor. But. I wouldn't really call that comedy.

And I mean, he misrepresents a lot of other groups too. Fat people, skinny people, men, women, nudists, sex addicts, virgins, prostitutes, druggies, superheroes, volleyball players.

heh you don't really understand, do you. it's very hard to misrepresent something when your "misrepresentation" is still thought to be what is real by so many people. but i answered this in detail in my post below yours.

This is bullshit. Casually portraying the viewpoint as ridiculous is the first and last step. Lighten up and get over it. It's never wrong to not make a big deal about stuff; that's called tolerance. Your dislike of comedy runs way deeper than Calunio's dislike of trannies, so you're the real problem here. You're the only one creating hatred.

So, basically, you are telling me that transgendered people should just sit down and shut up at something that is seriously offensive, and all transgenders should be grateful that they are being included at all? Do I really need to elaborate to you on how dumb this really is?

Oh woow, I dislike so-called "comedy" that is transphobic (whether intentional or not), so I obviously hate ALL comedy! And I'm being "intolerant"? You sound like one of those "men's rights" guys, or a white person afraid that the government is giving too much more attention to minorities than you.

I'd like you to keep raging on, because I think it's pretty funny. You're basically proving my own point.

Polymorphous Perversity (18+ NWS)

I completely understand where you're coming from, by the way. But where does the slippery slope end? People make fun of certain..."categories" that I fall into, and I'm not offended unless they act on those flaws IRL (e.g. when the stereotypes become discrimination and/or bullying). For instance, if I took offense to every time someone assumed I was lazy at work because I played video games, I would have had an anxiety-induced heart attack by now.

I don't know of these "categories" that you fit into (honestly, I've come to know a lot of people who fall into a lot of categories, so I'm the least likely person to be a judge of what you are interested in unless it is harmful to others), but I could address your video game comment.

Unfortunately, I don't think that it is a valid comparison. It's mostly because video games and gamers have been well-established as a group, and common knowledge about them (and the MANY kinds of gamers) has been established for a long time in society. By comparison, there is not a lot of media that accurately represents transgenders beyond stereotypes and caricatures; in fact, I don't think that a single game exists yet that has actually shown the struggles transgendered people need to overcome.

As for the slippery slope...

Someone mentioned it as an "order of magnitude" thing, which I guess makes sense: some stereotypes are more severe than others. LGBT people do suffer from more severe discrimination than most others but the line is blurred when it comes to comedy. To me, it's an issue of equity: someone will always be offended by something, so where is the line drawn?

The only way to avoid offending people in a game like this is to not make it at all.

I didn't deny the possibility of making a transgendered comedy; it is entirely possible, but it is one of those subjects that you NEED to handle with care, otherwise you would end up rehashing the same old tropes that have been constantly used in the past to deny transgenders their rights, or in the absolute worst cases justify their murders.

Maybe in several decades, these tropes will become so obviously ridiculous to everyone that we would wonder why humans actually thought of it that way. (remember the 19th century and how blacks were portrayed as subhuman, or closer to apes by general culture?) However, now is not that time - we as a whole society need to get past the "acceptance" phase before we can use these things so casually. We need much more work that shows transgenders in a positive light, because the ones that do exist out there are being drowned out by a sea of crap.

However, this game is also supposed to have a bit of psychoanalysis attached to it. That's where the issue is: I would've thought that the creator would avoid stereotyping based on sexual labels - and would try to think from the perspective of people who are gay, transgendered, obese, etc. Maybe a contrast of perception vs. reality, or stereotypes vs. truth, would justify a segment like the "tranny cave" if it were followed up with something more realistic. Perhaps a main character who only has "vanilla sex" and starts off believing in all these stereotypes, but then realizes that they are the norm by any means.

It probably wouldn't have been as offensive if he had lampshaded himself, or shown transsexuals as something more than just "traps" (as you said earlier - i think your reference was pretty apt). But yes, this is certainly part of the problem.

I'm not trying to offend anyone with my points. I'm firmly in the middle here, looking at it from as many perspectives as I can.

That's okay! There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning and keeping an open mind. And I think that you're doing much better than this next guy who is following up...

It really does not carry as negative of a connotation as you think it does. It's usually just fetishizing. Compare a google search of "tranny and nigger ." I can pretty much guarantee you that the latter will carry much more violent uses of the word. It is also used in a hateful way, but not 100 percent of the time, which makes the analogy bad.

lol, where to begin with this... Do you realize what you are typing in your own post? When you fetishize someone, you imply objectifying, which is something that even feminism has been trying to get rid of for so many years from women. Believe me, it is NOT as fun as you may think it is.

And, please, don't lecture me about it not having violent uses, especially when - with all of the hyperbole taken out - the murder rate of transsexuals is 16 times higher than the national average, and many are still driven to suicide by bullying and other causes. You saying otherwise only makes you look like a total tool.

Secondly, yes. Tranny is literally a less harmful word because it does not have nearly the same historical significance as the word nigger. It is not "worse" to dehumanize a black person, but the words simply do not have the same level of significance and probably never will.

wow, are you being serious? Who actually CARES about how "historically significant" a pejorative word is? Just because nigger has an allegedly "longer" history than tranny (which in itself is very debatable, because trangendered people throughout time have been referred to by many other pejoratives as well) does not somehow make it much worse.

A word that is used to dehumanize someone is...a word that is used to dehumanize someone. You are still belittling a person for who they are; the only difference between these words is what you reference about that person! You come off as less defending your position, and more justifying yourself to use it as freely as you want.

Again, we are talking about a game that features this cutscene.

you do know that scene has a lot of problems in itself too, which is a topic for another discussion. i'm just going to say that it is far more creepy than "deep" or "funny" or whatever you would like to think about it.

It is absurd it is to say "hey, you weren't sensitive enough to transgendered people" is in a game that has THIS in it? Like, the juxtaposition here is blowing my mind. Calunio made a game before where you just ran a brothel of super heroines. And after that he had a game where you trap people in a dungeon and torture and rape them. Like, I appreciate your goal here, but I'm not sure that this particular instance is where you want to fight this battle.

I've never played or seen Marvel Brothel, and Beautiful Escape: Dungeoneer from what I played of it seemed to acknowledge its own creepiness. Honestly, your referencing those two games is a complete strawman because they are not at all related to Polymorphous Perversity, besides them being made by the same author.

You should read what I wrote to Deckiller above. Now, you know those stereotypes that I've been railing at all this time? They are still very widespread, and they are actually thought to be true by a HUGE amount of people! This is a great reason why I say that continuing to use them is damaging, because you are perpetuating a bad image of transgendered people that we are trying to eradicate.

Polymorphous Perversity (18+ NWS)

You make a reasonable point, I just don't think that tranny is nearly as negative inherently.

I didn't want to bring it into this discussion, but that's probably because you have either a. have not experienced it yourself or b. seen others that you know and love being disparaged by it. Otherwise, I think you would believe this situation very differently.

It's a common word - along the likes of "shemale" and "he-she" - that is used to dehumanize a transsexual and try to invalidate their desire to live as their true gender. Just like how the word "nigger" is used to dehumanize a black person and try to invalidate their lives as free and equal beings. I can't see how one cannot be as great as the other, unless you are placing transgendered people below black people in a hierarchy, which in itself is pretty bad for obvious reasons.

Nothing is sacred, I think, when it comes to comedy, but if something is too intense for you, just play another game. There are only like a million.
It's not like we're gonna go lynching after playing or watching something.
Actual opinions should never be formulated from any kind of media and probably don't even accurately reflect or express the true feelings of its creators.

Again, I will mention that there is a great deal of misinformation on transgendered people out in the world. How do you think minorities felt back in the day when they were being portrayed all of the time in negative and insulting stereotypes, which were completely manufactured by those with privilege (and sometimes naivete)? It is exactly the same in this case, and if nothing is said or complained about, nothing will actually change for the better!

Honestly, something needs to be said in order for these kinds of mistakes to not happen so carelessly, like I believe calunio did. Silence does nothing for anyone who is involved, and change does not happen by itself.

You can judge it as unfunny--which I'd agree with. However, if comedy is the intent than you can't judge it as insensitive or something that should be squashed. If you start attacking comedy then you create an environment where nobody is willing to risk being funny because the repercussions are much more far reaching than simply being unfunny. In other words, Blazing Saddles might've never been written if such a social climate existed.

Okay, I do see your point. I didn't intend to attack the notion of politically-incorrect comedy in that way, but if my words came out like that I do apologize.

What I was trying to say, is that calunio grossly misrepresented transgendered people with his attempt at...whatever it is, and I believe that he should be called out on it. (and as a psychologist himself, he really should be better-informed; most transsexuals would not be this charitable)

I would expect nothing less from other people if someone had made a movie about black gangs pillaging a city dry while the good white folk come in to save the day, or if someone made a beat-em-up game where you fight gay people trying to rush and rape you.

Polymorphous Perversity (18+ NWS)

Electrical Kat, you can't always tell if something is going to be funny until it's out there. So long as funny is the intent, which is admittedly difficult to gauge, you shouldn't crucify the comedian.
I...don't understand what you are trying to say. Polymorphous Perversity IS out there, so are you saying that he should be excused anyway because he tried to make it comedic? It's been released, but we still cannot judge it?

Part of me wonders if everyone would say the same thing, if someone had created a musical comedy of a Nazi death camp. (and before anyone goes lolgodwin or that "this isn't the same", do bear in mind that i am trying to illustrate how something could be offensive and unfunny yet be..."intended") It is very possible to make a comedy of transgendered people, but this...is not exactly the right way to do it.

Also to everyone: please do not get me wrong and think that I am the language police, but execution does play a huge part into whether something works the way you intend it to be, versus how it really comes out as.

Protip: The politically correct are rarely hilarious.

I forgot to point this out in my earlier post, but I was talking about your use of that word here:

Tranny bashing is never ok, but they deserve to get made fun of just like everybody else.

Now, imagine how it would've come out like if you had said "faggot bashing" or "nigger bashing" instead. That is why I say that you shouldn't use it so casually in speech.

Polymorphous Perversity (18+ NWS)

Protip: The politically correct are rarely hilarious. ;-)
(Edit: I would never use humor to outright hate on folks, I hope intention provides at least a bit of a distinction)

Well, you could have all of the good intentions that you wish for, but intentions don't really absolve you of being...uh, not funny. I'm not railing against political incorrectness, but rather I am bringing a point against using it completely wrong.

I will use Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles as an example: It is an insanely politically-incorrect film, but at the same time it is still very funny, even by today's standards! It uses the N-word as much as you would say "hello" (among other things), but it also lampshades itself, and it turns into a self-parody.

By comparison, what calunio is doing here is reiterating a stereotype that is almost - if not as old and overused - as "get back in the kitchen", without showing anything that could possibly redeem it other than an assumed veil of comedy.

many a "blacks" who take absolutely no offense to the "n-word". In fact, they commonly refer to each other with the word ... my friends could be called anything and they wouldn't mind as long as it was coming from me.

That's probably because you are friends with them! And because you have "N-word privileges" as is said with them. If you had walked in front of a random stranger and you called them a nigger, then I think you would receive a pretty angry look in response. (if not you being decked in the face)

But this analogy is still bad because the word nigger is way, way more offensive than the word tranny. Tranny is not really a good word to use, but it does not carry nearly the same connotations.

Um, correct me if I am wrong but ... did you just try to say that a word used to dehumanize a transgendered person is, in some way, "less offensive" than a word used to dehumanize a black person? That they are somehow not equal?

How about dehumanizing an Asian person? A Jewish person? A Muslim? Someone who is gay, lesbian, or bisexual? Would you like to grade these insults, because I don't know if you realize this, but you are basically saying that dehumanizing someone who is transgendered is not even close to being important as dehumanizing someone who is black.