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Red_Nova
The all around prick
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Prayer of the Faithless
On the brink of the apocalypse, two friends struggle to find what is worth saving

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Prayer of the Faithless

If you're talking about after you get Mia in the party in Asala, then you will be directed to go into Asala palace, where there will be another save point for you.

Prayer of the Faithless

author=ricifidi
I hope it's not as merciless as soul sunder in hardcore mode xD


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Thank you for the fanart!

How can Designers Create Levels to deal with Unflexable Players?

author=Sooz
but honestly, what kind of level design could one reasonably do to make up for the issue of "player is bad at multitasking but insists on a blind LP anyway"?


Little to none, which is why I said exactly that in the beginning and end of my first post and spent the rest of it exploring a different approach that could help reduce (not eliminate) the chance of future brain farts. "Some people just won't get it" is both a true statement and a hard stop on any sort of conversation to be had on this topic. It is possible for both the player to be bad at a game and the designer to be bad at designing, but only one of those points is worth talking about.

Also, just because you're bad at a skill doesn't mean you can't develop it or have fun with it. I don't know whether the LPer in question is a full time LPer or some rando doing this for fun in her spare time, so I don't think "just stop if you're not good," is a particularly helpful take.

author=Sgt M
I think you can get away with littering everything with arrows early on to give players a sense of how the game flows and how everything is structured. You can (and probably should) gradually wean the player off of arrows and other obvious visual guides as the game goes on, and by a certain point the player should be acclimated enough with tools/abilities available to them to figure out how to navigate your design.


Agree that's how it should play out, but not every situation is that nice and smooth. Where that "certain point" is, and whether or not the player started getting frustrated before or after that certain point is not is a case by case basis, and one that shouldn't be immediately met with a blanket "you just don't get it."

If you've done all that you can to teach the player how to play your game and they still don't internalize the lessons, then fine. That's on them. But arrow signs aren't the solution to every problem, and there may be alternative, less overt ways to teach players how to navigate your game.

How can Designers Create Levels to deal with Unflexable Players?



Putting this in hide quotes even though the context of this topic might have given away the twist in the above video.

I think there is a difference between being weirdly stubborn about something and being unable to see alternative solution, and that difference is whether or not the person is even aware that an alternate solution even exists. Technically speaking, she wasn't playing the game wrong by going down a path that has been proven to work in the past, regardless of how frustrating that path could be. Because it's been proven to work in the past, each time you attempt that path, the chance of seeing an alternate path can diminish, even if it's right in your face.

I genuinely wonder how many people who watched this video missed the gorilla. Anyone think their chances of spotting the gorilla would raise if they were frustrated?

How can Designers Create Levels to deal with Unflexable Players?

Ultimately, I agree that people will always have brain farts and there is no such thing as a 100% idiot-proof design decision. However, one aspect that I see a lot of people overlook here is that the instance RedMask used here came from a Let's Play. I haven't seen the moment in question, so there are a lot of factors about the exact level and situation she was in, but I think there's a little more nuance to this topic than just "she dumb."

Assuming this LPer is commentating her playthrough, it's important to note that a good chunk of her focus was diverted away from the game so she could talk. That's easier for some people more than others. As someone who has streamed playthroughs of games, I can tell you with certainty that it's a whole lot easier than it may seem to have a brain fart when you're trying to talk about something else. Sometimes you have to fall back on your System 1 mode of thought while you System 2 focus on commentating. If a player is trained to follow certain behaviors in your game up to that point, that can lead to accidentally taking an unintended route when a much simple route is right in your face. To name a totally random example: after falling off a platform, you see a path back up that you've already taken at least once and know will get you where you need to go, and so immediately set down that path without taking the time/effort to devise an alternate path upward.

For the sake of argument, let's pretend that this is what happened in the case of this LPer. What can you do as a designer to influence a player's System 1? Personally, I see a few factors that can lead to a failure to make the connection that the Rocket Nozzle can be used instead of the longer route:

The Rocket Nozzle is a temporary modification to FLUDD that, as far as I remember, is most often given to players to clear specific platforming challenges that could not be completed otherwise. Depending on when during the level the Rocket Nozzle was given to the player and how often they used it up to that point, it might be possible that the player simply forgot that she had it. If you put the box with the Rocket Nozzle right at the point where it could be used to get back to to that platform, it would have been a strong, silent hint that the Rocket Nozzle can be used more than just designated challenges.

Regarding level design, I seem to recall the more open-ended levels being littered with arrow signs pointing you to where you need to go. Put enough arrow signs in your levels, and players may subconsciously learn to rely on them instead of figuring out their own way through. If there were no arrow signs in the game at all, players would have had to train themselves to analyze and determine their own path through the levels. Alternative, if you do want those arrows in your game, imagine how a player would react if you put an arrow pointing straight up? If players started relying on those arrow signs, seeing one pointing straight up might cause them to stop their System 1 thinking and examine the environment to see how it's possible to follow the arrow's direction.

I'm not saying that all games need to be designed with streamers/LPers in mind, and I agree that this seems like a fringe case that wasn't entirely the fault of the game's design. I just think firmly establishing the base rules of your game and the toolset players can access will help mitigate these "brain farts".

Damage Number Philosophy

One thing to expand on for the Fonts section is that, like iddalai said, the numbers need to be readable immediately, especially if they won't stay on the screen for very long. The Persona 5 example, while nice and stylish, could have benefited with just a little space between each number to keep them from blending together when trying to read them. Even I still have a hard time reading them sometimes, and I've beaten it 3 times across vanilla P5 and Royal.

I know that hating on Comic Sans is a bit of a meme, but the font is actually recommended by multiple Dyslexia groups because the distinct shape of each character helps Dyslexic people read them. Other examples of fonts good for the visually impaired are Arial, Times New Roman, Veranda, Harrington, and Lavanderia.

And in case there's any uncertainty...

Demo is Live!

Thanks NS! I'm still chipping away at the tasks little by little, and I'm looking forward to getting this ready for testing.

I realized while changing my profile information that I first joined RMN 10 whole years ago as of February of this year. You think I'd be better at making games by now.

That's just the internship period. Now you're ready for entry level work.

Heartbreak + Setbacks

It's great that the whole project wasn't corrupted, at least. And yeah, 2020 has been a really mule kick in the face for everyone. Glad to see you getting back into it, though!

Misaos: Soma Union voted Most Promising Demo!

Congratulations! I'm glad this demo is getting the recognition it deserves!

And hey, being different from its predecessor is not inherently bad. If you have a vision for a game, then following it is a good thing. Good luck on the rest of development!