STORMCROW'S PROFILE

@EtherPenguin: Whoa! Your page ninja saved me from double posting.

author=Sooz
TBH in Japan, the high school years are considered the only years you have any kind of freedom: after that, it's assumed you're buckling down and either getting yourself into a job or going to college, both of which are expected to take up all your time and attention. Or, if you're a ladytype, you're gonna get married and pop out babies.

So there's an expectation that once you leave your teen years, you'll be devoting all your time and attention to either a job or a family.

I'll note that the expectation of job time extends past the usual working hours: you're expected to also hang out with your coworkers drinking afterward, and you're usually expected to be on-call. So literally your life is gonna be your job or your family once you're in the adult world, leaving no time for hijinks of any sort.

This extends to fantasy and sci-fi settings because it's just an inculcated attitude: too many people would have trouble with the idea of a protag who's an adult NOT feeling the crushing weight of responsibility shackling them down and preventing them from doing whatever.

This is exactly the kind of insight into the Japanese psyche I was looking for, thanks Sooz.

author=Shiny
An aside, not about jrpgs but in A Song of Ice and Fire the oldest Stark child (Robb Stark) is 14 when the books start, by the time he's king of the north he's not even 16.

I know those kids mostly fail at saving the world but still.

I do not have the words to explain just how much better ASoIaF/Game Of Thrones handles writing child/adolescent protagonists than the average JRPG, so let me go with: 50 BILLION TIMES BETTER.

author=Sooz
Why can't a RPG have a seasoned protag who's a fish out of water in other respects? Such stories are a mainstay of action movies, thrillers, horror, and mystery, but throw in elf ears and swords and suddenly it's just completely impossible to write that kind of protag?

The protag of (must not link to it must not link to it must not link to it) the game I'm actively working on now is pretty much exactly that. He's a veteran special forces badass here on Earth. And then he goes through a portal into JRPG land where nothing makes sense. He can hold his own in combat because he brought an M4 with him and because killing is killing, but as far as things like save points and mimics and spells and monsters he is totally baffled, let alone the actual magical geopolitics of magicland. It's his step into the land of elf ears and swords that makes him a fish out of water, however.

@Darken:

What you said about WWII is absolutely true. God, people in that generation are just OBJECTIVELY BETTER than any of the generations that followed; well, I guess that's why they're called The Greatest Generation, pretty on the nose. They were very literally saving the world from evil at 18 (many that were even younger lied about their age to enlist) and we are collectively living in our parents basements at 30 as we watch our planet fester and die from the wounds our parents gave it, thinking that hashtags are going to change something.

And I totally think good writing about young and younger protagonists is very possible (...not shameless self promotion or anything). I just don't think Squaresoft has DONE a lot of it.

author=Darken
But specific to FF8, its entire concept from the start was combining school with war. The story provides a lot of effective commentary on why it's not a good idea to send young people into worldly political situations. Almost every plot point in disc 1 is pushed forward by typical character youth mistakes (Seifer being too overconfident in Dollet, Zell revealing information about Garden through Seifer's taunting, Seifer being seduced by the dark side with the sorceress literally calling him a little boy,Rinoa potentially screwing up the mission because of her rebelliousness against her father, Irvine not being able to make the shot due to the knowledge about who took care of them etc.). These are flaws that might not have happened had these characters grew up and not done these things for the first time.

Consider also that a lot of students of Garden are likely war orphans (as of the entire main cast except Rinoa) and that Garden as an organization goes through a lot of 'ends justify the means' ordeals in order to kill the Sorceress. Squall essentially has some sort of PTSD syndrome when it comes to focusing all of his efforts on becoming SEED and neglecting compassion. I think there's also something about the lore in it being easier to junction the younger you are? Regarding Quistis, I really don't get why a child prodigy who rose to the ranks to be able to teach their contemporaries is really that crazy. There are tons of child prodigies in real life that can achieve advancements in education, though interestingly according to this: rarely does a child prodigy become an adult genius. But then, keep in mind Quistis got demoted from being a teacher due to her lack of leadership qualities, which actually kind of sells that aspect even more.

(well first off, I'm one of those rare child prodigies that did grow up to be a genius, at least according to the arbitrary metrics we use in the west. now before i get crucified for the arrogance of that statement, let me say that it hasn't done me any good in life and it hasn't stopped me from doing stupid shit and i am sure i will be doing plenty of stupid shit in the future so i'm not saying this out of ego because i don't even think it's an advantage at this point, but yeah, some child prodigies do grow up to be geniuses. being a genius is fucking overrated. it's not mutually exclusive with being a dumbass and it correlates strongly with misery. none of this applies to what i had to say about Quistis below because I'm a person and she's a fictional character.)

Okay, I don't want to get too far off on a tangent criticizing the bad writing in FF8, also please understand I am not swearing because I'm angry, just because I'm a big ol' pottymouth, BUT:

* Yes, they do fuck up because of their youth, but there are seldom logical consequences! Squall's reward for completely fucking up the mission to assassinate Edea is to be...promoted to commander of SeeD??? What the fuck was Cid POSSIBLY thinking? Hmm...I'm a 40 year old veteran, you're an emotionally unbalanced borderline sociopathic 18 year old with no understanding of his own feelings, no interest in or awareness of the feelings of others, and dangerously nihilistic tendencies...you tried to kill my wife which should make me not like you...and you bungled it spectacularly and got arrested which demonstrated your incompetence...HERE, HAVE MY ARMY I SPENT MY LIFE TRAINING AND BUILDING! Cid Kramer is easily my least favorite Cid. He is so fucking soft it is inconceivable that he could be leading a merc outfit in the first place.
* The main problem I have with Quistis (totally my favorite character btw) is that yeah, she'd be believable as a genius child prodigy teaching a class a year younger than her, if the character wasn't a useless GODDAMN IDIOT for the entire rest of the game. Except for knowing exactly what Squall is going to say next, an ability that can be learned by anyone who has played the game for 20 fucking minutes, her erstwhile intelligence consistently fails to come through in her dialogue or actions where she demonstrates no smarts whatsoever.

Probably the most glaring example of badddd characterization is when you land on Battleship Island for the first time. Quistis--the one who's supposed to be the SMART one--says something like "what the hell is this place I have never heard of it" and Squall, who has been established as not giving a shit about anything except his own eternal wangst, somehow knows what it is and tells her. On the other hand, if you have ZELL in the party, he gets to be the one that knows about this place and tells you. I'm sorry, but "Know It All Zell"? At what point did we establish that Zell knows FUCKING ANYTHING!?!? His entire character is that he's a goofy moron!

Quistis has one moment of genuine wisdom in the entire game that I've seen so far (I don't know what's beyond Lunatic Pandora, I just know Ultimecia Castle is going to be a bitch when I get there)--and being wise is not the same as being smart--and that's when she tells Squall that maybe he should go after the girl he's in love with rather than just passively letting her become sealed evil in a can? And that moment mostly works because she is finally saying what the audience has been screaming at Squall in less polite language the entire time.

author=Sgt M
Marketing.

13-25 year olds are the target audience for most video games, particularly during the late 90s/early 2000s when JRPGs were still frontrunner games if we're going by the examples provided in the OP.

Players generally desire characters that are relatable to them in age.

And that sells units.

And that pleases shareholders.

That's pretty much it.

"Morbid cynicism but it gets results. That's humanity for you."
- Revolver Ocelot

author=LockeZ
But I mean, I don't think 12 year olds play action adventure games to get the experience of being 12 years old. The fantasy if you're a kid is to become an adult. Not an older adult, but still an adult. 12 year olds want to be Cloud Strife, not Ash Ketchum.

This. Totally and exactly this. Although I didn't want to be Cloud Strife, because he's not as cool as Barrett and way less cool than Vincent Valentine. Sidenote: the Anita Sarkeesians of world've been screaming about how vidyagames desperately need female role models so that girls can relate to them are fucking dumb; people can relate to people of a different gender, Anita, it's called being a sane human being.

author=LockeZ
Part of the issue with Japanese works though is that age 15 is generally considered an adult in Japan, culturally speaking. So if you have characters who are 15-17, they very much qualify for this phenomenon. They're young enough to still be relatable to a younger audience, but old enough for that younger audience to still perceive them as adults who would be qualified to take on the world.

You know, I actually wasn't enough of a weeb to know this. That actually goes a long way towards explaining the phenomenon. Thank you.

author=bulma
Hollywood likes to push the "16 is pedophilia (when it's clearly not)" while at the same time glorifying pedophilia with all sorts of child actors looking super made up. Hypocrites much?

I dunno, ask Roman Polanski.

author=bulma
Japan's age of consent is 13. Yeah, seriously.

well sorry not sorry but that is seriously fucking creepy.

author=bulma
It also, explains why Quistis is a teacher, and why it's seen as so bad for her to be into Squall.

Nothing will ever explain why Squall didn't go for it, though. I think my resentment of the character Squall Leonhart has its genesis in my teenage resentment of him for rejecting Quistis in the beginning of the game. Even as a teenager I was hot for teacher. Quistis is obviously objectively* much hotter, and she may be a ditz as I mentioned above, but Rinoa is a spoiled rich ditz.

author=bulma
Now, the age of consent for adventuring... is around 9. At 6, you're much too young emotionally to be killing monsters and possibly humans, at 9, you've mostly finished childhood, no longer need diapers, and can usually read unless illit and have probably learned some useful skills like lockpicking.

Actually, without being facetious at all, I believe that the proper adventuring age is around 10-12. Sources: Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer, The Goonies, Stephen King and Peter Straub's The Talisman.

*sarcasm

I'm gonna split this off into a double post now, sorry. I'm not trying to respond to everyone systematically it's just y'all pretty much without exception have interesting shit to say on the subject.

I assumed a negative value would just lower the chance of inflicting the state but I am probably being a math retard because I am retarded at math.

author=Marrend
Anyway, I'm at an awkward moment when I reference my own written LP of Suikoden 3 for the location of a character (Landis).

Hey at least you know your own writing, probably much more convenient than referencing an online walkthrough or gamefaqs where at least 25% of the time you have no idea what the author is talking about or what they're trying to convey.

I've parked FF8 (final comment: FUCK THE FUCKING LIAR ROCKS) and the Ragnarok just outside of Lunatic Pandora, and gotten behind the wheel of FFVI for the fourth or fifth time.

I will beat FFVI this time, I will beat FFVI this time, I will beat FFVI this time...(also I might have tried LockeZ' MUD, not that I'd ever give him the satisfaction of admitting that publicly oh shit what did I just do-

author=kentona
I am older still.

I thought you had transcended age at this point and were living outside of time.

author=Cerberus
I grew up on the GGZ outskirts admiring a lot of the games on the site and just the general early RM culture. (I was probably 11 or 12 around this time) So a lot of the content is childhood games essentially. Which is something I think a lot of RM authors at the time didn't really think too much about. That a lot of lurkers who avoided interaction grow up to be influenced by these amateur RPGs. It's my main motivation as to why this type of stuff should be preserved.

Wow. You're actually exactly right. I hadn't thought about it before but part of the reason that games like Diary Of A Madman (anyone remember Diary Of A Madman) and A Blurred Line and others influenced me so much is that I was a young teen when I played them.