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Exeunt Omnes
A game of strategic sophistry. Convince or crush the teenage girl who wants to end your reign of evil.
A game of strategic sophistry. Convince or crush the teenage girl who wants to end your reign of evil.
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Fundamental RPGology
Never heard of Game of the Generals before, but it sounds really interesting to have a chess-like game with hidden information, cool inspiration!
Yeah Go is pretty much the perfect abstract strategy game, entirely boiled down to one type of piece, two colors, and one rule (plus a couple of footnotes like ko), and still far more difficult than chess to make good AI on (so far no AI beats top human players, contra Deep Blue &co), which is a great demonstration that you can get more with less.
Funny thing is, while working on AI for both, I concluded that you can go quite far in mapping decisions from one to the other. Different pieces in chess translate roughly to different places on the board in go, piece type becoming centrality (with pawns = edges), and piece capture becoming a living group in that place. It's what got me started on the idea that you can isolate principles of strategy from any concrete incarnation (and then insert them in your RPG system if you wish).
caparo> I've always wondered if there's anything to save in grinding. Perhaps that could be an interesting design challenge for next time: how do you get a level progression without almost certainly screwing up your game's balance. I guess you'd need a weird system where higher levels close as many opportunities as they open, so that both a low- and a high-level playstyle are equally valid and strategic in any battle.
Or perhaps lower levels could come with fewer options but more hidden information in your favor - you are the unknown element, the underdog. That sounds kind of cool actually, rather Daoist - you'd have the Yang style, all about obvious force and reach, and the Yin style, where you try to conceal how good you are.
Yeah Go is pretty much the perfect abstract strategy game, entirely boiled down to one type of piece, two colors, and one rule (plus a couple of footnotes like ko), and still far more difficult than chess to make good AI on (so far no AI beats top human players, contra Deep Blue &co), which is a great demonstration that you can get more with less.
Funny thing is, while working on AI for both, I concluded that you can go quite far in mapping decisions from one to the other. Different pieces in chess translate roughly to different places on the board in go, piece type becoming centrality (with pawns = edges), and piece capture becoming a living group in that place. It's what got me started on the idea that you can isolate principles of strategy from any concrete incarnation (and then insert them in your RPG system if you wish).
caparo> I've always wondered if there's anything to save in grinding. Perhaps that could be an interesting design challenge for next time: how do you get a level progression without almost certainly screwing up your game's balance. I guess you'd need a weird system where higher levels close as many opportunities as they open, so that both a low- and a high-level playstyle are equally valid and strategic in any battle.
Or perhaps lower levels could come with fewer options but more hidden information in your favor - you are the unknown element, the underdog. That sounds kind of cool actually, rather Daoist - you'd have the Yang style, all about obvious force and reach, and the Yin style, where you try to conceal how good you are.
Fundamental RPGology
Aegix and roses: Cool progress! I'm really glad to read this is coming along well.
NeverSilent> We already have a Marvin Gaye-themed entry, you're free to do one based on Peanuts.
YM> Okay, I'll try to PM calunio for dungeoning suggestions. Jokes aside, I'm looking forward to other games you might make someday, even if you leave RM behind and never look back.
Treason> 1) One for participating, the other for winning (I.. guess; kentona's the quartermaster of achievements)
2) Haha true, well let's say it was a kind of guideline or indication of the spirit of the contest: if you can do the same thing in a simpler way, it will always land you a higher score. Now like everything else it's just a pointer in what we deem is the right direction; if someone comes up with something incredibly brilliant that breaks all the rules and convinces us we were wrong from the start, we'd be magnanimous (although we'd rather not have everyone assume they're going to be that person ;) )
I'd like the summary to be included with the files, but you can also post a copy here or, better yet, make a game page.
NeverSilent> We already have a Marvin Gaye-themed entry, you're free to do one based on Peanuts.
YM> Okay, I'll try to PM calunio for dungeoning suggestions. Jokes aside, I'm looking forward to other games you might make someday, even if you leave RM behind and never look back.
Treason> 1) One for participating, the other for winning (I.. guess; kentona's the quartermaster of achievements)
2) Haha true, well let's say it was a kind of guideline or indication of the spirit of the contest: if you can do the same thing in a simpler way, it will always land you a higher score. Now like everything else it's just a pointer in what we deem is the right direction; if someone comes up with something incredibly brilliant that breaks all the rules and convinces us we were wrong from the start, we'd be magnanimous (although we'd rather not have everyone assume they're going to be that person ;) )
I'd like the summary to be included with the files, but you can also post a copy here or, better yet, make a game page.
Fleuret Blanc.
Hey, nice to see this one here! I played it an eternity ago and have forgotten pretty much everything. Should give it another try one of these days. I didn't remember it was so long though!
Fundamental RPGology
Treason> You can have more but we won't judge more ;) Give the judges a way to access only the 5 fights you want to showcase most and you're free to do whatever you want with the rest of the game.
Shinan> That's an usual way of using hidden information, doesn't mean you cannot find other applications! For instance it can also be a way of playing the environment, rewarding some sort of exploration.
As for the idea of drawing the random numbers in advance, seeing at least a few of them into the future would help planning although it doesn't prevent failing due to a very bad streak. Having limited foresight plus draw-without-replacement (i.e. if you get a 1, it won't be drawn again until all the other numbers are drawn) improves it even more because then you know that if you endure bad luck at some point, you will be rewarded by success later.
But I really wonder whether, at this point, it wouldn't make more sense to implement rules dictating the success or failure of a given action deterministically. Like, say, having weather conditions which are non-random (and thus foreseeable) but not simple either, and determine which sorts of magic are available or whether ranged attacks will fail or whatever.
Not saying it's a good idea, but it seems to me that it would basically converge to the same effect as the random system above, i.e. variation that you have no direct control upon and that you must deal with as a risk.
YM> I understand. A shame though! You should renounce your principles for the collective good. Like, to press the comparison, if I had Lys86 in front of me I would chain him to a computer because sometimes individual liberties must be sacrificed for the sake of humankind. All's fair in gam and mak.
Shinan> That's an usual way of using hidden information, doesn't mean you cannot find other applications! For instance it can also be a way of playing the environment, rewarding some sort of exploration.
As for the idea of drawing the random numbers in advance, seeing at least a few of them into the future would help planning although it doesn't prevent failing due to a very bad streak. Having limited foresight plus draw-without-replacement (i.e. if you get a 1, it won't be drawn again until all the other numbers are drawn) improves it even more because then you know that if you endure bad luck at some point, you will be rewarded by success later.
But I really wonder whether, at this point, it wouldn't make more sense to implement rules dictating the success or failure of a given action deterministically. Like, say, having weather conditions which are non-random (and thus foreseeable) but not simple either, and determine which sorts of magic are available or whether ranged attacks will fail or whatever.
Not saying it's a good idea, but it seems to me that it would basically converge to the same effect as the random system above, i.e. variation that you have no direct control upon and that you must deal with as a risk.
YM> I understand. A shame though! You should renounce your principles for the collective good. Like, to press the comparison, if I had Lys86 in front of me I would chain him to a computer because sometimes individual liberties must be sacrificed for the sake of humankind. All's fair in gam and mak.
Unraveled: Tale of the Shipbreaker's Daughter
This is without doubt one of the most beautiful RM game I've ever played. The setting and the atmosphere were masterfully conceived and executed, and I really enjoyed the wordless narration. The plot keys are a bit worn-out by now though - it seems that little girls with bleak pasts in a slightly creepy half-real half-imaginary world make up a good half of all recent RM games :P I enjoyed the enemy designs and the Limbo-style anaphora though.
The battle system was rather interesting and required some thinking, although I don't think it would have stayed fresh much longer than the current duration of the game (it suffers a bit from the fact that all new skills are ever harder to reach and the one-dimensional nature of Focus vs Rage, which means that by the end I often got stuck in similar patterns again and again).
Also, having this faint light on places where one can climb/jump/etc was a brilliant idea. I'm not so fond of walking around in corridors or pseudo-mazes so the basic gameplay did it for me only because the backgrounds were so pretty, but that's totally fine for a one hour game.
Such a shame the secret ending requires going through all of it again, guess I'll never get it (I have some trouble adhering to the concept of having to replay an entire game when absolutely nothing changes between playthroughs, plus I got all the stars on the first one, not doing that again).
Overall, although I have some reservations on various matters of taste, this is really incredible for a game made in a month. A hat tip to you!
I'm assuming that the comment by the stranger is prompting our poor orphan into a journey through her memories of how she landed there, which only becomes clear when we hear that comment again.
The battle system was rather interesting and required some thinking, although I don't think it would have stayed fresh much longer than the current duration of the game (it suffers a bit from the fact that all new skills are ever harder to reach and the one-dimensional nature of Focus vs Rage, which means that by the end I often got stuck in similar patterns again and again).
Also, having this faint light on places where one can climb/jump/etc was a brilliant idea. I'm not so fond of walking around in corridors or pseudo-mazes so the basic gameplay did it for me only because the backgrounds were so pretty, but that's totally fine for a one hour game.
Such a shame the secret ending requires going through all of it again, guess I'll never get it (I have some trouble adhering to the concept of having to replay an entire game when absolutely nothing changes between playthroughs, plus I got all the stars on the first one, not doing that again).
Overall, although I have some reservations on various matters of taste, this is really incredible for a game made in a month. A hat tip to you!
Fundamental RPGology
Well challenging the things stuck in your head is one of the goals in the contest ;) But as Merlandese pointed out a few pages earlier, there's also the dimension of complete vs incomplete information to create risk. There can be non-random things that are hidden, like face-down cards in CCGs, or parts of the map in the fog of war in strategy games.
The difference is that random things can be anything, useful or totally useless, whereas you know that hidden non-random things obey some rules. For instance, hidden actions by the opponent serve a purpose: if they are placing this card face-down, you know they are trying to achieve something so you can at least make an educated guess. For me there's much more risk management involved in good guesses than in "I really hope I'll draw all the cards for my combo right now".
YM> Come on, if you don't give us the pleasure of finishing Character, at least do one teeny tiny battle system~
Aegix and seiromem> If you want to discuss your ideas, openly or in PMs, don't hesitate. I'd hate to see good ideas lost due to implementation problems. (also, breaks are good)
karins> I think there'll always be enough difference between systems that you don't have to worry about this. On the off-chance it happens, I guess we'll either accept ties or force them into a mud wrestling match.
The difference is that random things can be anything, useful or totally useless, whereas you know that hidden non-random things obey some rules. For instance, hidden actions by the opponent serve a purpose: if they are placing this card face-down, you know they are trying to achieve something so you can at least make an educated guess. For me there's much more risk management involved in good guesses than in "I really hope I'll draw all the cards for my combo right now".
YM> Come on, if you don't give us the pleasure of finishing Character, at least do one teeny tiny battle system~
Aegix and seiromem> If you want to discuss your ideas, openly or in PMs, don't hesitate. I'd hate to see good ideas lost due to implementation problems. (also, breaks are good)
karins> I think there'll always be enough difference between systems that you don't have to worry about this. On the off-chance it happens, I guess we'll either accept ties or force them into a mud wrestling match.
Fundamental RPGology
Maybe this has been asked before but after 8 pages of disscussion and 15-20 new notices every day about this buzzing topic, is somewhat difficult to keep track.Tell me about it :P At least there should be far fewer updates and messages from me now that the thing is more-or-less running itself and I've incorporated a lot of suggestions from other people into the rules or their presentation.
roses> No problem with scripts! Anything is fair game (bar outright stealing from other people or burning their houses), we're evaluating your ideas, not your coding skills.
Aegix> Cool progress, I'm looking forward to seeing your system ;)
Isrieri> Randomness for the battle set-up (like items, enemy distribution and so on) is not prohibited; I'm fine with having random tools to start with, as long as they don't randomly fail on me for no reason. Though not-random solutions are welcome there as well!
author=turkeyDawgGlad that you joined!
e: The one thing kinda throwing me off about this contest is "minimalist" and "the usual cluttered mechanisms".
You may find the judging criteria on the contest page helpful: as they clarify, by minimalism I mean "no more ingredients than is useful". As you say RPG battle systems often have tons of different gimmicks that mostly do the same thing (e.g. change your stats a little), hence the paradoxical feeling that they are too simple AND too complicated. Here I'm asking that every new ingredient should have a significant impact on depth. If that means many ingredients for a LOT of depth, that's good!
Marrend> That's just a suggestion, feel free to ignore it entirely ;)
To everyone, concerning the AI problem:
There always is an ambiguity about where the game rules stop and when the AI rules start. Interesting game rules may constrain by themselves the way the enemy can act, even if the choice is then completely random. Conversely, you could have very simple mechanics and the game could actually hinge on figuring the AI rules (think bluffing in poker).
So I left the AI door open for this kind of possibilities, but it's not mandatory at all! See Merlandese's comment on the previous page for our general stance.
Exeunt Omnes
author=argh
Just got the logician ending. I do think it was too difficult
Congrats, and yeah it is really unbalanced. I didn't want people to stumble on it through pure luck on their first playthrough, but I went too far in the other direction. Thanks for going that far though!
author=argh
How is the score at the end calculated, anyway? Things like belief changes and emotion points seem like pocket change in comparison to the Kant reference bonus. My Adhavista ending score was like triple my score in every other path because of it.
Haha well I'll let you in on a small secret: the score and rank were tacked on at the end of the development as something of an inside joke. The score is straightforward: 10 points for each point of emotional change, truth change in the hero's belief, and villain claim. But the rank doesn't actually depend on the score, it depends on the ending - which was a very obscure and injokey way of saying that in a villain's value scale, only results matter, not the means. The Kant reference bonus is 500 points, because that's almost a Godwin point in philosophy; it clearly favors the philosophical path which is the only one where the means are actually taken into consideration.
This is all frivolous, and weak in terms of real game design, but I thought I could get away with it for this once ;)
CashmereCat> All my thanks! There's definitely a lot to improve on in terms of interface and clarity; even now I have trouble seeing Exeunt Omnes as a "full game" since it was a test run for my engine (and I spent most of the allotted month expanding and debugging it instead of making the game, stupidly enough)
Feel free to give me remarks on everything that seemed weird or was a weakness in your opinion. It will only make my future games stronger!
(and not only mine hopefully, since i want to release the engine for modding. So if you ever want to make a game with the same basic representation but a different mechanism, let me know and I'll see if I can adapt the code. The representation is really meant to be quite generic - it can go from simply giving a visual on the usual "conversation trees" that exist in most pro RPGs these days, to being a full on concept map)
Exeunt Omnes
Walkthrough updated!
The Kant reference is
Immanuel Kant is a very influential German thinker whose most important writings are impossible to read without becoming either mad or a philosopher :P A large part of subsequent philosophy, like Nietzsche, has been in reaction to Kant. So it's a prime target for apprentice philosophers to criticize so as to feel superior, exactly like our teen protagonist!
The Kant reference is
all the way to the bottom left, it's tricky to get there because you have to stay as much to the left as possible when going down, while Hero's comment drags you to the right.
Immanuel Kant is a very influential German thinker whose most important writings are impossible to read without becoming either mad or a philosopher :P A large part of subsequent philosophy, like Nietzsche, has been in reaction to Kant. So it's a prime target for apprentice philosophers to criticize so as to feel superior, exactly like our teen protagonist!
Exeunt Omnes
Thank you so much :)
I just realize I forgot to put up the walkthrough I promised argh for the Logician ending! I'll do it right now. (It is really a bit trick to get)
Darn, that's the first time I've heard of that bug... Deeply sorry about that.
I just realize I forgot to put up the walkthrough I promised argh for the Logician ending! I'll do it right now. (It is really a bit trick to get)
author=Ilan14
Altough, when I tried to get the low territory ending, once I selected the exit node, the game shutdown itself. Do you know why this might be happening?
Darn, that's the first time I've heard of that bug... Deeply sorry about that.
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